Still NO POWER......a metro could smoke my SHO!

[filc03]

Good work AutoSHO, that plug was disconnected. Sadly, this doesn't seem to have helped the problem at all. Do I have to disconnect the battery & let the computer "re-learn" the engine for this to change anything? I ran codes again and here's what I have now:

111 System checks OK

157 (R,M) Mass Air Flow signal is/was low or grounded

172 (R,M) Oxygen sensor not switching - system is or was lean - Single, Right orr Rear HO2S - Fuel control

167 (R) No Throttle Position sensor change in "goose" test (must get at least 25% rotation) - TPS

225 (R) Knock sensor not tested (ignore if not pinging)

I suspect the 172 code is there because the engine was running lean while it was letting in extra air, right? I'm glad to see 167, lets me know I did the test more correctly this time. In respect to code 225, I'm hearing no noticeable knocks/pings from the engine. That leaves me with the MAF or TPS. Do any of the symptoms of my car sound like these could be culprits? Thanks for the help so far, I'm finally seeing the possibility of getting my SHO back on the road.

 

[Zap]

From what it sounds like you may have at least one problem. There have been documented cases of the knock sensor failing to the point where it retards the timing and the car loses a lot of power. It may be an issue, however I am unsure if the goose test needs to be properly completed to test the knock sensor, or not. Did you floor the gas during the goose test period? I believe you need to reach 2-3k or so for it to register properly. If you did that, then you may have a bad TPS.

The MAF and TPS codes could also pinpoint a problem with performance. You may want to check the connector on the MAF, and make sure it is properly seated. Additionally, I would suggest cleaning the wire itself with electrical contact cleaner spray. That may clear up the MAF code.

It appears that the O2 code shows that either the front bank is lean, or the sensor is failing. I would suggest running the cylinder balance test to see if you are having ignition or fuel delivery problems, which could also be responsible for a lack of responsiveness from the engine. If the cylinder balence test passes, then you probably have a bad O2 sensor. If it doesn't you could have a problem with one or many injectors, plugs, or wires.

So, needless to say, you could have one or many problems that are resulting in your performance issues. However, I would highly suggest that you get all of the problems corrected for the health of your engine.

 

[filc03]

Yes, I took the goose test over 3k. Cylinder balance test pointed out a couple different cylinders. You mean clean the wire, not just the connectors? Any other suggestions?

 

[Zap]

Okay... well, for one thing make sure the engine is fully warmed up before running the test. I'm not sure if you did that or not, however I believe the engine needs to be warm before the knock sensor will test properly. I forgot about that in my previous post. Also, you simply want to clean the wire on the MAF that is inside the tube. It wouldn't hurt to clean the connector and make sure it is fully seated and secured.

If the cylinder balence test pointed out a problem, then I would suggest checking into it. It appears that there is a lean condition. This could be a fuel delivery problem (clogged injector(s)?) or it could be that the ECU is not expecting the amount of air that it is getting, and not increasing the fuel due to the TPS and MAF. There could be a vacuum leak from the valve cover (or elsewhere for that matter). Do you remember which cylinders are listed as being out of balance? That will make a difference.

As for the goose test, it is possible that the TPS is bad. That could cause some of the other problems that you are having too...

I would suggest clearning the codes (run the test and while the codes are being output remove and reinstall the jump wire OR use a code reader's clear function). Then take the car out and get it nice and warm (into the NORMAL range on the temp gauge) and come back and run the tests again. Hopefully that may clear up or confirm issues.

For that matter, if you are really feeling lost and can wait it out or drive the SHO... I'm not sure where Eaton is, or how far it is from me, but I'd be glad to give you a hand. I float between Cincinnati (school, here for the weeks) and Columbus (I'll be there at least this weekend, finishing my front 60k!).

 

[S_Mazza]

The MAF code may have been set when you unplugged it to test it. Similar things have happened to me.

So the symptoms are high idle and poor power? Anything else? Does it run roughly?

 

[RedDiabloStang96]

Check your ignition

Hey,
I had that problem SEVERAL times on my SHO (although my idle wasn't really high. I don't know what the deal is with that! Computer may be trying to compensate). Try these things before you do anything! The testing is free, and it might lead you to the problem (which if it's what I'm thinking, I think it will be MUCH cheaper than the other problems listed!) The following suggestions assume your plug wires are attached correctly! Check your ignition control module (ICM) and ignition coil. If it's an ignition problem, you need to have it fixed REALLY fast! It isn't going to fix itself! I waited too long, and then my cats actually CAUGHT ON FIRE it was running so rich. They were glowing sooo red, and then burned a hole in the case, and catalyst spewed all over the underside of my car! That also makes your car run badly! I believe my dad said the module kept failing on me because of the extreme resistance in the coil when the coil fails. He said something like, the resistance is so great in the coil, that the electricity going through the module actually jumps leads and shorts. So, I would try replacing the coil first, see if it works, and then replace the module. Hope I helped!
--Brian
P.S.
AutoZone has lifetime warranties on the module, and I believe on the coil too. The replacement coil connectors are a little different. You just have to take an exacto knife and cut off the interfering ridge on the connector.

 

[Zap]

Yanno, I never thought about that one. Make sure that the wires are correctly installed. There are a number of bad diagrams circulating for the routing to the coil pack, and you end up with a fairly crippled SHO. Mis-routed wires can cause a slew of problems.

 

[filc03]

Updted w/new codes

Hey, I finally got around to doing some more work with my car. I haven't checked the things that RedDiabloStang96 suggested yet, but I will soon. I do know that the coil should be fine, it has about 30k on it and has been fine ever since it was installed.
I cleared the codes, drove for 10-15 minutes to get it warm, then checked codes again. Here's what came up:


111 System checks OK (before I started the car)

167 (R) No Throttle Position sensor change in "goose" test (must get at least 25% rotation) - TPS

225 (R) Knock sensor not tested (ignore if not pinging)

412 (R) Idle speed system not controlling idle properly (generally idle too low) - ISC

Those are the ones I'm certain of. I ran tests twice and must have messed up codes somewhere, but those 3 I'm sure are legit. I'm going to check them again soon too, but there's something to start with. Any more suggestions? I checked to see if the crank bolt was loose and it's not, so that's good to know it's not crank cancer. I noticed a lot of heat on the front side of the engine, the back of the compartment seemed fine.

 

[RedDiabloStang96]

Hey,
If you are getting a great deal of heat in the front of the engine (I'm assuming you mean by the exhaust manifold), I would think it's because you are running very rich on one or more of the cylinders, and the fuel is catching fire in the cat (I haven't looked at my SHO for a LONG time (1+ years), so I don't really remember the routing for the exhaust and placement of the cats, but I would say it sounds like (to me) the raw fuel that is running out is getting burned up in the manifold or cats. If it's not the coil, change the module (or at least put an oscilloscope on it, and test it). You really do NOT want to let a running rich problem go un-attended on that car!!!! Anywho, I hope you fix it soon! It'll be great to see another person outsmart that VERY FREAKIN TRICKY CAR ! Anywho, get back with us and let us know how things are goin!
--Brian

 

[fred79]

wouldn't a lean side also run hot from the bank that is, not the exhaust.
is the tps getting unrestricted movement.

 

[RedDiabloStang96]

Hey,
Actually, yes, if it is running lean, then it would also be running hotter. But, in order to cause the problem he is having (assuming it is actually a rich/lean problem), then there would either have to be a lack of spark (causing it to run rich-coil, plugs, wires, DIS module-highest probability), or lack of fuel (causing it to run lean-completely DEAD fuel pump, bad fuel injectors, fuel regulator, fuel rail, etc.-EXTREMELY UNLIKELY). So, I went ahead and said it was probably running rich, because from what I understand, that would be much more likely. Also, I don't believe the computer has an ability to measure the fuel pressure (it might, but I'm not sure if it does or not. I don't think it does). Anyways, if he is getting a check engine light, and what I have just said is true, the computer would have no way of knowing if the fuel system was at fault. It could tell if there was an electrical problem (i.e. short, too much/little resistance, etc.) However, if there is a restriction in the system, the computer would not know. However, it would know if there was no spark, because the only thing that would cause a lack of spark is in the ignition, and there is a signal return line that goes to the computer after a plug fires. Anywho, I must say, I am NOT an expert, so someone correct me if I am wrong in anything I've said, as I am still learning too (I'm only 18 and just graduated high school last week, so...!) Anywho, hopefully my post helped someone with something! I'm kinda bored, so I figured, what the ****, I'll write somethin! Good luck man!
--Brian

 

[DHMag]

wouldn't a lean side also run hot from the bank that is, not the exhaust.
is the tps getting unrestricted movement.

lean condition will run hotter than a rich condition. when running rich, the unburnt fuel acts as a heat transfer, reducing exhaust temps.

 

[Lurch]

But with catalytic converters, the extra fuel that would normally act as a heat transfer burns inside the converters, creating a LOT of heat.

 

[fred79]

I was thinking that his throttle cable may have been impinged causing the slow rise to speed and the a lack of air causing a lean condition.

 

[RedDiabloStang96]

Hey,
Technically, from what I understand, DHMag and Lurch are both right, depending on what the problem is (Duh!) Both will cause the engine/exhaust to run hotter. But yes, I believe running rich will make it hotter than running lean closer to the cats (because the whole purpose of the converters is to burn the excess fuel!), so if the cats are close to the front of the engine, naturally, the heat of the combustion will radiate itself towards the front of the engine (through the pipes). Running rich will definitely make the cats hotter, which will then radiate itself into the exhaust manifold (because of the impending restrictions caused by the melting of the cats). That's what happened to me anyways. The cats melted (because my coil died, and killed 2 cylinders, dumping raw fuel into the cats, causing them to catch on fire and glow red and melt!) Anyways, when they melt, the metal actually flows into the flow-path of the exhaust, creating a TREMENDOUS restriction, making the exhaust pressure rise a lot, making the piping in front of the cats hotter. And yes, the problem I was experiencing (dead coil/module) caused such a lack of acceleration, it actually took me about 5 minutes to get up to 2000 rpms! Anyways, long enough. So, in summary, both of you are right (I think! HEHE! It's too early for me!!!) See ya, and good luck!
--Brian