Steering Wheel Off Center ...

[vortex2450]

So along with swapping engines I also installed a new steering rack with tie rods...

Now my steering wheel is 45 degrees tilted to the left when the car is driving straight. granted the cars pulls left because I need an alignment badly but I was wondering if there is something I can do about this "tilt" or if it's pretty much all in the alignment..

I have tomorrow off so if there is anytime to tinker with it tomorrow is perfect. I was thinking I could mess with the tie rod ends or something like that..

-Josh

 

[jmpSHO2nd]

It just needs an alignment.
http://doxinh.com/danh-muc/do-boi/do-boi-tre-em/ Do ngu Do ngu nu Do ngu nam Bo cho be Album anh cuoi dep Do ngu dep

 

[Shoaz]

If you had the subframe out it probably needs to be recentered. There are alignment holes for the subframe at the front. It doesn't have to be perfect, but the closer it is to center the easier it'll be to get the alignment balanced.

And if you changed the steering rack then of course the toe is going to be all over the place, so it would be a miracle if the steering wheel came out centered after all that.

I wouldn't drive it much until you get the subframe squared up and alignment done, unless you don't care about wearing out the front tires.

 

[vortex2450]

If you had the subframe out it probably needs to be recentered. There are alignment holes for the subframe at the front. It doesn't have to be perfect, but the closer it is to center the easier it'll be to get the alignment balanced.

And if you changed the steering rack then of course the toe is going to be all over the place, so it would be a miracle if the steering wheel came out centered after all that.

I wouldn't drive it much until you get the subframe squared up and alignment done, unless you don't care about wearing out the front tires.

Your probably right, the sub-frame went in slightly off center, I bumped it over some but I didn't know there were holes for aligning it, but the problem now is two of the recall kits were so rusted out I had to replace them with huge ****** nuts that I ground to fit the notches in the sub-frame but getting the bolts loose at this point and time may be impossible without a second pair of hands...

And I don't plan on driving much at all, I have to make it to school today and work tomorrow, but after that I don't plan on going anywhere until I get paid and can go to a good alignment shop..

So what I'm getting from this is that it's probably a mix between the toe being all completely skewed and the subframe being not factory centered...

I guess I should see how far off the SF is while I have it up in the air today..

thanks

-Josh

 

[Bob Gervais]

So what I'm getting from this is that it's probably a mix between the toe being all completely skewed and the subframe being not factory centered...


-Josh

Correct. Use a 1/2" ratchet extension to get it as centered as you can. This will help with alignment, as most shops will just "get it in the green" and call it a day. Proper subframe alignment results in balanced alignment settings.

 

[vortex2450]

Correct. Use a 1/2" ratchet extension to get it as centered as you can. This will help with alignment, as most shops will just "get it in the green" and call it a day. Proper subframe alignment results in balanced alignment settings.

So I could just loosen the bolts say a turn and use a 1/2" ratchet extension and probably get it close? There's a good amount of weight on the subframe, probably going to want a breaker bar for more leverage..

 

[Bob Gervais]

I'd say a couple of turns, then use the 1/2" extension to move the sf around. You'll see some holes near the front sfb's that are used for alignment purposes. Even easier, two 1/2" extensions and a helper, one person on each side. Get the sf aligned so that the extensions are straight side to side and front to back (in relation to the sf itself) and you're close enough.

It moves fairly easily, you'll be surprised.

 

[shocar]

I picked up a Sho that the steering wheel was off center by 20 degrees or so. The place it had been getting serviced obviously did not do good work. The car was in alignment but I had to jack up the car, disconnect both tie rod ends and back off one side and forward the other side the exact turns to get the steering wheel to be on center. Just make sure you count the turns exactly or you will throw it out of alignment. Do this after you determine the sub frame is aligned correctly if the steering wheel is still of center.

 

[vortex2450]

I'd say a couple of turns, then use the 1/2" extension to move the sf around. You'll see some holes near the front sfb's that are used for alignment purposes. Even easier, two 1/2" extensions and a helper, one person on each side. Get the sf aligned so that the extensions are straight side to side and front to back (in relation to the sf itself) and you're close enough.

It moves fairly easily, you'll be surprised.

I should absolutely do this before I get an alignment that they have the best possible starting point, I am right?

I picked up a Sho that the steering wheel was off center by 20 degrees or so. The place it had been getting serviced obviously did not do good work. The car was in alignment but I had to jack up the car, disconnect both tie rod ends and back off one side and forward the other side the exact turns to get the steering wheel to be on center. Just make sure you count the turns exactly or you will throw it out of alignment. Do this after you determine the sub frame is aligned correctly if the steering wheel is still of center.

Honest to god, I was thanking off doing exactly that but didn't think to mention it, it would be even better to do before the alignment I bet! Then even if I screw up the turn by a hair they'll correct it to machine precision, I've watched guys use that machine a couple times, I wish I could find a shop were they didn't "just" get it in the green, but actually balanced the numbers on both sides, I want to get a slightly aggressive camber/toe..


Also, off track, the power steering feels dead at a stop at slow speeds, particularly when backing up. It feels normal (besides needing to be aligned) at all speeds. It has VAPS, the connector on the original steering rack was located on the pressure hose fitting, the switch on the 94' track I put in was on the rack itself, When I replaced the pressure hose I simply put a fitting into the hole on the hose fitting and plugged into the connector on the rack. Does it matter which one I use? I figured it was a pressure sensor and if the newer rack used it then I must be somewhat better placement anyways.

I still have to flush the PS system, I didn't realize how much old fluid was in the rack, it's a mixture of about 80% new and 20% old (black) fluid, I know it needs to be flushed but should it make such a large impact at a stop? I'm full of curiosity here.



Thoughts on this?

-Josh

 

[Bob Gervais]

Yes, align the subframe before you bring it into the alignment shop.

On the steering issue (also replied in the swap thread), it may just feel that way because the alignment is so far off.

 

[32MTX]

I picked up a Sho that the steering wheel was off center by 20 degrees or so. The place it had been getting serviced obviously did not do good work. The car was in alignment but I had to jack up the car, disconnect both tie rod ends and back off one side and forward the other side the exact turns to get the steering wheel to be on center. Just make sure you count the turns exactly or you will throw it out of alignment. Do this after you determine the sub frame is aligned correctly if the steering wheel is still of center.

NO

that is not the correct fix, that will change your toe settings equally in relation to steer ahead, but it will not properly set your toe....

The front wheels swing on ball joints and are connected to each other via your steering linkage.

You can set the right tire straight ahead, 0 degrees toe. You can set the left tire lets say at 10 degrees toe in(for sake of simplicity)..... whats going to happen is your wheel will be to the left when going straight down the road...

all that happened was your toe equalized, the LF has 5 degrees toe in, and the RF has 5 degrees toe in when your moving down the road in a straight line. If you stopped the car and put the wheel straight, you would be back to 0 degrees toe on the RF and 10 degrees toe in on the LF....When your driving the balljoints allow the tires to turn, but you are still connected by the steering linkage to both wheels so they will always be in relation to each other when moving, I.E. both toe readings will be identical. You can make the wheel straight by adjusting the LF in and the RF out equally as you described, this will make the wheel straight, but your toe is still way out in left field and wearing tires(you would still have the 10 degree split in toe from side to side), changing driving characteristics of car, and just generally making the car rigged up like a true shade tree mechanic special......


fix it right, get an alignment...... its not THAT expensive....



doing his described method of... "straightening the wheel" will not make it any easier to the people to do the alignment, they are still going to have to change it no matter what.... I know on my machine, it will not pick it up accurately on the rollout compensation if you have more then 2 degrees total toe. At that point I would have to stop, adjust the toe as best as I can by eyeball so both tires are straight and under 2 degrees total, then restart the alignment procedure. I've had people bring in stuff that they eye balled themselves that was so bad, the tires were scuffing so hard it slides the ramps apart on my alignment rack which are hundreds of pounds a piece lol...... I've been doing alignments for years now and there is one thing I can tell you, you can't eyeball it. The changes in things are so minute, a flick of a wrist on an inner tie rod will make your toe off. If you really know what your doing, you could do slight toe changes at the track(like add a tenth of degree toe in to both fronts), but thats only after you've aligned it on a machine looking at the readings and know you have a good starting point.

 

[vortex2450]

fix it right, get an alignment...... its not THAT expensive....



doing his described method of... "straightening the wheel" will not make it any easier to the people to do the alignment, they are still going to have to change it no matter what.... I know on my machine, it will not pick it up accurately on the rollout compensation if you have more then 2 degrees total toe. At that point I would have to stop, adjust the toe as best as I can by eyeball so both tires are straight and under 2 degrees total, then restart the alignment procedure.

I feel as if I have stepped on your toes through your post, I am in every means getting an alignment very soon, I have to get paid first, I'm broke until tomorrow, I will get the alignment Saturday (I don't get off work till 6 ish, most shops will be closed by the time I'm at my car).

I am merely suggesting that I could straighten the wheel out some, I don't think any one around here is very competent ( I live in north Carolina, you would have to live here to understand how often you'll spot lack of quality in work and in employees). So I doubt they'll care about the wheel being off too much.

I hate driving the car without the proper work done, but I have zero choice in the matter, I have to work. The tire wear can't be too severe, I've driven a total of 90 miles, I know none is better but as I said, there's no other option.

-Josh

 

[theman88b]

Did you make sure your rack and pinion was centered when you installed it?

 

[vortex2450]

Did you make sure your rack and pinion was centered when you installed it?

I didn't have the factory bolts but I did my best at centering the rack, took me a couple try but I used a rubber washer slightly small the the diameter of the hole in the rack and basically guesstimated where "center" was...

I'm sure an alignment will cure this issue, but if there's anything besides aligning the subframe that I can do I'm all ears..

 

[32MTX]

I feel as if I have stepped on your toes through your post, I am in every means getting an alignment very soon, I have to get paid first, I'm broke until tomorrow, I will get the alignment Saturday (I don't get off work till 6 ish, most shops will be closed by the time I'm at my car).

you haven't stepped on my toes, I think the suggestion to turn each tie rod evenly until the wheel is straight isn't the greatest idea, and I provided a brief theory on how it works and why its not doing you any good to do that. your just waisting your time and it will not do anything different for tire wear. If your wheel is off that badly, defintely one side or both sides toe is severely out of spec and will be wearing tires.....

just like to keep good information on here, I know some mechanics who don't do alignments and couldn't figure out or don't know what I said on the last post.... so to DIY'er or a noob investigating how to do things will have an even harder time grasping that concept, sometimes its best to know WHY your doing something a particular way.....

just goto any regular name brand shop and pay the regular price for a 4 wheel alignment, if its not right, take it right back right away after you drive it down the street and tell them whats wrong and ask them to please make it better..... if a place turns you down and doesn't fix it they are scumbags...... you can't tell me there isn't anyone in North Carolina capable of doing a halfway decent alignment

 

[shocar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZoL1gaWedA

 

[shocar]

this one is even better
,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8qFjAB67vk&feature=related

and he doesn't talk like JR. I am don't see anything wrong with what I did to adjust the steering wheel to center after watching this video. please correct me if I am misguided

 

[vortex2450]

you haven't stepped on my toes, I think the suggestion to turn each tie rod evenly until the wheel is straight isn't the greatest idea, and I provided a brief theory on how it works and why its not doing you any good to do that. your just waisting your time and it will not do anything different for tire wear. If your wheel is off that badly, defintely one side or both sides toe is severely out of spec and will be wearing tires.....

just like to keep good information on here, I know some mechanics who don't do alignments and couldn't figure out or don't know what I said on the last post.... so to DIY'er or a noob investigating how to do things will have an even harder time grasping that concept, sometimes its best to know WHY your doing something a particular way.....

just goto any regular name brand shop and pay the regular price for a 4 wheel alignment, if its not right, take it right back right away after you drive it down the street and tell them whats wrong and ask them to please make it better..... if a place turns you down and doesn't fix it they are scumbags...... you can't tell me there isn't anyone in North Carolina capable of doing a halfway decent alignment

I completely understand, I respect you for that, but would would it hurt after I straightened the wheel via mentioned method for me to eyeball the wheels and turn a tie rod a couple turns and eyeball the toe in or out on whatever side until it at least "looks" straighter? It would have to be better than what it's at now, I can eyeball it and tell it's way off.

On that note, I appreciate the explanation of how it works. I'm not a suspension guy and you seem to do this for a living so I'll take it from you, I don't like to screw with stuff when I don't know exactly what I'm doing and it's obvious that in this system of the car I'm still learning. I'm hoping to get it to a shop tommorow, my boss seems pretty confident in the owner so I'll go there.

I will explain that it's important to me to have the steering wheel straightened out and that the alignment isn't done is a speedy manner but that care is taken, I've seen how the machines work and there's "green" sections so I can see where tech will jsut put it in the green and call it a day, I want the angles on each side to be matched up, I've been doing some reading on caster/camber/toe in etc etc so I don't walk in there sounding too dumb

The owner of the shop loves my best friend so I think I'll take him with me when I pick it up after work. If I don't like the work I'm without a doubt going back and asking them to get it where I want it.

-Josh

BTW: I've driven about 90 miles with the ***** front end alignment, how badly did I wear on my tires? I can't eyebaall much and the tire have less than 2k miles on them.

 

[32MTX]

depends how bad it is out of alignment, 1 degree off is like dragging your tires sideways for 26' every mile you drive I do believe - read that on tirerack.com, 1 degree off is a lot though.

the bad thing is, it will shape the tire a particular way, say you had the alignment off real bad, drove it for a couple weeks, then had it aligned after the tires started to wear, they will continue to wear in that pattern despite how the alignment currently is.......

alignments aren't THAT picky, you more or less want the general setup and have matched trends... slight caster lead on the right side, negative camber on both sides, toe in on both sides.......

if the LF is -1.5 degrees negative camber and the RF is -1.7 degrees camber, this is not nessecarily a bad thing.... you probably will never notice, in fact I'd bet a large sum of money you won't.

an Ideal setup for a SHO depends on how much caster you can get out of it.

-1 to -2 degrees negative camber
4 degrees caster left side
4.5 degrees caster right side
somewhere from .05-.10 toe in on the front

I think on my rears right now I'm at -1 degree negative camber and .15 degree of toe in... I set the fronts to toe out just for the **** of it recently to feel the difference, i think I'm out -.05 toe out right now, I hear a lil more tire squeal it seems through corners so I'm gonna bring that back to toe in specs...(the factory wants toe out on front)



I always try to get a half a degree more caster on the right if I'm adjusting everything from scratch, if its equal though I don't loose sleep over it. I just try to stay away from more caster on the LH side then the RH because of the road crown....

also you want the cambers to be the same, you don't want positive camber on one side and negative camber on the other side, this will cause a pull.....

yeah I do alignments a lot, I'm the only one in my shop who does them. I can do a 4 wheel toe set on most cars in under 15 minutes from the time it hits the lift to the time I take it out on a test drive...... I get in the zone and can do 3 alignments an hour when things go good and I don't need to do a lot of tweaking....

 

[vortex2450]

depends how bad it is out of alignment, 1 degree off is like dragging your tires sideways for 26' every mile you drive I do believe - read that on tirerack.com, 1 degree off is a lot though.

the bad thing is, it will shape the tire a particular way, say you had the alignment off real bad, drove it for a couple weeks, then had it aligned after the tires started to wear, they will continue to wear in that pattern despite how the alignment currently is.......

alignments aren't THAT picky, you more or less want the general setup and have matched trends... slight caster lead on the right side, negative camber on both sides, toe in on both sides.......

if the LF is -1.5 degrees negative camber and the RF is -1.7 degrees camber, this is not nessecarily a bad thing.... you probably will never notice, in fact I'd bet a large sum of money you won't.

an Ideal setup for a SHO depends on how much caster you can get out of it.

-1 to -2 degrees negative camber
4 degrees caster left side
4.5 degrees caster right side
somewhere from .05-.10 toe in on the front

I think on my rears right now I'm at -1 degree negative camber and .15 degree of toe in... I set the fronts to toe out just for the **** of it recently to feel the difference, i think I'm out -.05 toe out right now, I hear a lil more tire squeal it seems through corners so I'm gonna bring that back to toe in specs...(the factory wants toe out on front)



I always try to get a half a degree more caster on the right if I'm adjusting everything from scratch, if its equal though I don't loose sleep over it. I just try to stay away from more caster on the LH side then the RH because of the road crown....

also you want the cambers to be the same, you don't want positive camber on one side and negative camber on the other side, this will cause a pull.....

yeah I do alignments a lot, I'm the only one in my shop who does them. I can do a 4 wheel toe set on most cars in under 15 minutes from the time it hits the lift to the time I take it out on a test drive...... I get in the zone and can do 3 alignments an hour when things go good and I don't need to do a lot of tweaking....

That's alot of information, appreciate it! I've only driven 3 days and less than 100 miles so the wear can't be that bad.

The car doesn't pull too bad, it's pulls left but nothing intense, on the note would it be a good idea to swap the rear tires with the front tires, I know it wouldn't chance the water pattern if it's ingrained too much but I'm curious about that.

Should I write those numbers down and use them when I'm talking to the tech at the shop tommorow?

I also know about road crown so I'll keep that in mind.

I completely hear you on the getting in the "groove", well it's dark now so I can't mess with it anyways. I just want to be as informed as possible while I'm at the shop.

thanks,

-Josh