Starter out, replaced it and oil pan, with pics

[sdpatt]

I had several cases today (3/21) where my starter would not turn the engine more than a partial revolution. The starter would engage the flywheel, but would stall and drop the battery voltage to about 8 volts.

I first suspected the battery, but found that after less than 5 minutes at a 10 amp charge, the battery was fully charged. The voltage on this one-year old battery would not increase beyond 12.7 volts (without load) which is less than a completely healthy battery. I even substituted my boat's 1000 CCA battery and had the same results. In some of the no-start cases, if I were to immediately turn the ignition key again, the engine would crank and start as it should.

I removed, cleaned and reinstalled the battery terminals with no change in the intermittant start behavior. I have purchased a couple of terminals to replace the less than intact originals and will try that first. I will check the connections at the solenoid and starter. I also have a remanufactured starter ready for installation, but wanted to hear some starter experiences from you guys first.

Is there a failure mode of the starter that allows the starter to engage the flywheel but not have the torque to spin the engine even with a fully charged battery?

<small>[ March 23, 2002, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: sdpatt ]</small>

 

[SilverSHO]

I don't know the details, but I do know that my original starter started acting really strangely before it finally gave out, including episodes where it would turn the engine, hang up a second, then start turning again and start the car. My brother was driving the car when the starter gave out, so I don't know exactly what happened, but the new starter works fine. I would swap in the remanufactured starter and see how it works.

If you're still on your original starter, when you remove it put it in a glass case.

 

[SHO SPD]

I am not too sure, I know when my starter went it WENT! It didnt give me any indication that it was going, it just didnt start, after I JUST started it like 10 min. before... so I had to do the conventional roll, and pop to get it started...

<small>[ March 22, 2002, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: SHO SPD ]</small>

 

[mhodzic]

I am not sure what could be wrong with it, but my first guess is that battery is bad. I would take it to the parts store to get it checked, if ok then move on. Make sure that you have good ground conections, bad conections can result in similar problem. Or you can just put the remanufactured one and see if it is any better. From what you described it seems to me that there is no enough power to turn the starter. good luck let us know when you figure it out

 

[clintonk]

Is there a failure mode of the starter that allows the starter to engage the flywheel but not have the torque to spin the engine even with a fully charged battery?

Yes.

My '90 SHO still has its original starter, but my '90 ****** recently spit one out. The symptoms were identical: starter engages flywheel, engine turns very slowly if at all, and system voltage drops to 8 or lower. Replaced the battery, no improvement.

Took the starter to Autozone for testing. On the bench, it pulled so much current that the technician and a nearby customer were showered in sparks. The tech said the starter's bearings had seized. Since the motor can't spin, there is no back EMF, and the inrush current is very high, hence the voltage drop. The rebuilt starter I got solved the starting problem; I'd never heard the motor crank so fast.

Clinton Knight
'90 White 182K
'95 Green 49K

 

[clintonk]

Another failure mode with the same symptoms is a short in the motor windings. If the motor overheats and the insulating coating on the windings breaks down and adjacent wires touch, you effectively have a smaller, weaker electromagnet. This yields reduced torque, slower spinning, higher current, and a greater voltage drop.

This failure mode is probably less common, or it wouldn't be practical to rebuild starters (or alternators).

Clinton Knight
'90 White 182K
'95 Green 50K

 

[sdpatt]

It was a long day in the garage for sdpatt. I had bought a remanufactured starter from O'Reilly Auto Parts for $62 yesterday. I already had on hand the oil seal set but I wasn't going to remove the Y-pipe and starter just to save a little oil. This was my opportunity to take care of the oil pan leaks too. I also replaced both of the battery terminals since the originals had cracked. The list of items covered today is as follows:

1) Replaced both battery terminals
2) Replaced the oil pan's rubber and silicone seals (Fel-Pro set)
3) Replaced the starter (Ultima reman)
4) Changed the oil and filter
5) Cleaned the oil from the Y-pipe's cats that hopefully won't return so quickly

Here are a few photos that I took as the job progressed.

New, 9-tooth stater. The Gen I starters are direct drive and do not have a planetary gearset. They also have stator coils rather than the permanent magnets of the newer starters which causes them to be larger.

View inside the oil pan. There were a few pieces of gray silicone in there, but quite clean.

Oil pickup screen, windage tray and flywheel. There were also a few strings of silicone stuck in the screen too. The flywheel had good wear indications.

Connecting rod, crank counterweights and part of the cylinder wall. Clean.

Close-up of the cylinder wall in the last photo. The piston travels from the upper left to the lower right in the photo. I expected to see some up and down scoring on the wall, but only saw the circumfrential honing marks. Pretty clean for over a quarter of a million miles.

Scott

<small>[ March 22, 2002, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: sdpatt ]</small>

 

[clintonk]

Neat pictures, Scott! Did you check out the rod bearings, too, or have you done them already? It that something I should consider doing while rehabilitating my '90?

Clinton Knight
'90 White 182K
'95 Green 50K

 

[sdpatt]

Before removing the oil pan yesterday, I had not ever touched the lower end of the engine, nor have I seen (or heard) the need to. I have heard SHO engines with rod knocks from crank bearing and wrist pin clearances in excess of the limit, but have not heard these noises from my engine (knock on wood). I think the best thing you can do for rod bearing maintenance is to change the oil every 3,000 miles with Castrol GTX (hey, it's worked for me) and not lug the engine.

Here are a couple more photos of the crank area.

View of several of the large rod ends and counterweights.

One piston shown near the bottom of its stroke with a view of the wrist pin and small rod end.

Scott

<small>[ March 23, 2002, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: sdpatt ]</small>

 

[Marccus]

I've had the EXACT same problem. My orginal starter on my '89 went after 260,000 miles. I put in a new re-manufactured starter (from FORD) of the new design (where you had to purchase a wiring kit). The starter lasted three months. I then put in a 2nd re-manufactured starter from FORD which lasted TWO WEEKS.

After a few no-starts, I started the car by popping the clutch. The next time I tried, MAYBE, once in awhile, it would start right away, but the engine struggled a bit.

That may have happened once or twice (if I were lucky enough). Then the starter was dead for good.

The battery is fine, the electrical system checks out fine. I don't know why these re-built starter(especially the ones re-built by Ford) are failing like this.

I am about to install the third re-manufactured starter, but I'm getting tired of this!

My guess is that the new starter type for the SHO is way undersized and the bearings are wearing out fast causing complete failure.

How can I have an original starter last 260,000 miles - used at times when the battery in place had to be jumped or was just about dead (weak lights, accessories) - and a brand new one go with a full strength OPTIMA battery. Even if the OPTIMA were a little weak, it should still start. Heck the old starter worked while at times using much weaker batteries.

Would be interested in any advice you have to offer.

sdpatt:
I had several cases today (3/21) where my starter would not turn the engine more than a partial revolution. The starter would engage the flywheel, but would stall and drop the battery voltage to about 8 volts.

I first suspected the battery, but found that after less than 5 minutes at a 10 amp charge, the battery was fully charged. The voltage on this one-year old battery would not increase beyond 12.7 volts (without load) which is less than a completely healthy battery. I even substituted my boat's 1000 CCA battery and had the same results. In some of the no-start cases, if I were to immediately turn the ignition key again, the engine would crank and start as it should.

I removed, cleaned and reinstalled the battery terminals with no change in the intermittant start behavior. I have purchased a couple of terminals to replace the less than intact originals and will try that first. I will check the connections at the solenoid and starter. I also have a remanufactured starter ready for installation, but wanted to hear some starter experiences from you guys first.

Is there a failure mode of the starter that allows the starter to engage the flywheel but not have the torque to spin the engine even with a fully charged battery?

 

[sdpatt]

I got the original starter remanufactured by Ultima. The remans come with pretty much all new components and since they are identcal to the originals, the installation is just a "simple" bolt up. I expect this rather stout starter to last me another 256,000 miles. I'll let you know if it doesn't. O'Reilly Auto Parts will hear about it too since they sold it with a lifetime warranty.

Scott

 

[Marccus]

sdpatt:
I got the original starter remanufactured by Ultima. The remans come with pretty much all new components and since they are identcal to the originals, the installation is just a "simple" bolt up. I expect this rather stout starter to last me another 256,000 miles. I'll let you know if it doesn't. O'Reilly Auto Parts will hear about it too since they sold it with a lifetime warranty.

Scott

 

[Marccus]

Found out more about my starter problems, you may want to consider this possibilty if your new starter goes soon.

Traced start problem to faulty ignition switch. Shop manual gives diagnostic procedure for determining if (when car won't start - nothing happens) the problem is with the relay or ignition switch.

Remove ignition wire push-on connection on the relay and use jumper wire from positive post on relay to push-on post, thereby bypassing relay.

If the car still won't start (no dimming of lights, nothing happens), fault is with the relay.

If car starts, fault is with the ignition wiring or ignition switch.

Dismantled steering column to get to the ignition switch and found 3 tamper resistant TORX screws - Argggggg. Took 4 hours to drill one out and gave up. Need to get TR TORX bit.

But cleaned connector to switch and connections on switch. Now it starts flawlessly each time. Lately, though, I've noticed slight hesitation. I'm going to replace the Ignition Switch anyways.

If I'm stuck before I can do that, I'll just "hot wire" the car with the jumper wire - sure beats pushing a 3,500 lb car and popping the clutch.

I haven't read about anyone considering ignition switch failure so you may want to pass this around. Some may be blaming starter and replacing it again and again without thinking - like I did! Oh well, learning the "hard way" is sometimes the best way.

sdpatt:
I got the original starter remanufactured by Ultima. The remans come with pretty much all new components and since they are identcal to the originals, the installation is just a "simple" bolt up. I expect this rather stout starter to last me another 256,000 miles. I'll let you know if it doesn't. O'Reilly Auto Parts will hear about it too since they sold it with a lifetime warranty.

Scott

 

[sdpatt]

My ignition switch was working fine. The starter would always engage the flywheel when the key was turned. It was the starter that didn't have the torque to turn the engine more than a partial revolution. As the engine stalled in its rotation, the current through the starter greatly exceeded its normal 350 or so cranking amps to drop the battery voltage to about 8 volts while the starter was stalled. The starter's locked rotor current was a good sign of a weak electrical motor.

The new starter spins the engine with noticeably more enthusiasm than the old one. That original starter lived a long and useful life - 11 years and 256,500 miles.

Scott