Standing on pedal bearly stops car. Confounded!! Help?

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MacEwen

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Hi guys,

I'm a little new to the SHO realm here. Last week I did a crank sensor, cam sensor, TPS, water pump, and power steering pump. This week I did the rear (struts, endlinks, soft brake lines, and hard brake lines to the bias proportioning valve in the rear, new pads, new calipers, new parking brake cables.) Adjusted the cable after bleeding rears. I figured I's get more the air out as best I could, and see how it stopped, and felt, before doing the 'sequence'.

I have a fair amount of rust underneath. The two valves on the bias block move freely. However it is not connected to the control arm. That mechanical link or connection is not made to the lower control arm.

2 years ago a 'mechanic' repaired two rear lines (turns out only from front (abs block?) to rear bias / proportioning valve block. From that block to rear brakes he did NOT replace, and I found they were shot and replaced them. He also did new calipers and rotors. Since then right rear audibly dragged and ABS light was on. I didn't take it back since I figured I'd just fix it myself when I got the time.

I did the rears recently, because I could feel they were hanging while driving (sat for a year), and they didn't release much after releasing the parking brake lever when I was done under the hood. and tried to push the car backward. So rears are bled, using anti siphon method (submerged hose in fluid). Parking brake is was auto adjusted correctly, and adjustment nut was run down till almost touching its mating bracket. Parking brake works perfect.

I took it for a test drive. And although having an 'OK' pedal before the drive, the pedal effort was insanely high to get any bite at all! Locking up brakes was certainly impossible, and I can leg press 750, out of shape. :) I pulled the front wheels, and checked the guide pins. They were smooth and greased. I backed off the pistons, and had an asistant pump pedal until I could see piston extend about a 3/8 inch. I did this both sides. I then bled the fronts, starting with drivers side. Took it for a drive, and it was virtually NO better. It felt like bad brake fade while standing on pedal.

What should I be looking at next??

I put about one pint of new fluid through each caliper, normal bleed direction. I even put teflon tape around the bleeder threads (only). Should I make up a pressure bleeder for pressurizing the master cylinder reservoir, and try that? would that sufficiently bleed the ABS unit too?

could bias valve be the problem? Shoudn't front stop it 'well enough' to lock the fronts? It's terrible. Pedal isn't bottoming out or anything. I degreased rotors/pads too.

front break lines are factory, I think. I only got this car 12k miles ago, and the breaks were never this horrible, until I let it sit for a year. Could it just be friction in the front bores? I'm stumped.

feel free to email me directly too, or PM.:shrug::braincramp:
 

SHO_Mike

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Sounds like your brake booster is not doing its job. Check the vacuum line going to the booster itself for cracks or holes. An easy way to do this is to spray carb cleaner on the booster (where the hose connects) and on the hose itself. Do this with the car running and if you get a slight RPM increase, you found your leak.
 

MacEwen

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Thanks for reply Mike.

This is the confusing part. There is a dramatic difference in pedal feel with engine running or not running as you would expect. If the booster holds vacuum, say 15, psi, then what? I did buy a new Master, cylinder, but did not install it yet (thanks Rock Auto $25), but not a booster. The fronts are glazed, but it still should bind and stop!?

I checked the fluid level before driving it away, after its 1 year park, and was normal, but brakes were still (stiff). I doubt I got air in master. But, reading other threads has me wondering. Maybe air in ABS block? (abs light was on after 'service' - I figured musta broke a sensor) from when first set of rear lines were changed by 'mechanic'. Then again pedal effort was not insane then.

Fronts are likely original lines, booster. :salute:
 
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MacEwen

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I haven't put a vacuum gauge on it, yet. Car is at friends driveway (gotta love friends). I pulled a hose, and large strong vacuum was felt and heard at idle. I don't hear a vacuum leak. I will search out vacuum after I finish putting in new:
calipers, and rubber hoses. My guide pins were well lubed. I even cracked the lines open (to bleed) at master cylinder, and test drove again. The pedal holds, it doesn't drop to floor (no change), but brakes just don't grab hard. I've never experienced this before. Front rotors were glazed and hit them with 24 grit flap disc.

So, since I ordered the parts, 2 calipers, 2 hoses, master, and booster, I'd start by replacing the calipers, and rubber hoses. Just in case there is some sticking of the pistons. Bleed, and see what's up. (Booster looks like a major pain on this).

I got one side installed, but was given wrong line for the other side. Grrr.

Perhaps, there is air in system? I don't recall what that even feels like. I put at least a pint through each caliper. Wouldn't that pretty much cover air, in master or ABS? How can I make sure ABS is evacuated?

thanks. :hail:
 
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MacEwen

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Yeah, ok 10-15 inches of vacuum.

I discovered a crack in senoid for secondaries. Explains why they were stuck open. Fixed. Vac line is too small to bother booster. But it's sealed anyway.

I put on both calipers, and lines today up front. Bled, even bled at master cylindèr, no appreciable change. Pedal feels firm but no real grab.

I can also feel a sloshing from the master as breaks are pumped. I'm gonna go with bad master as diagnosis. What else is left!? I thought maybe some pistons were sticky.. Grrr.

Tomorrow I put in thd master. That booster looks so tight in there.

With pump I can pull up to 15 inches of vac on the butterfly actuators, not running. That's strong enough, right? It holds for about 1.5 secs.
 

itsstan

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What type of pads did you put on it? Are they ceramic? If so, they need to be heated up a bit before they will bite. They are sold at AutoZone and Advance Auto as their top of the line pad, they're dangerous on a DD.
 

MacEwen

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I have familiarity with ceramic pads. My 1988 Trans Am is a solo racer with Vette calipers, etc. usually a few hard stops, about 4-5 gets things nice. In fact I believe they are from Autozone. They are ceramic. I did rough up thd rotors, and pads. None of what I experience now is akin to how it used to stop before it sat for a year.

Hmm I changed the pads less than a few hundred miles, yet 14 months ago.

I've never experienced this sort of problem before. The feels solid, no fluid is lost, now, new calipers. The SHOs braking system is a bit new to me. I've learned more about this car than I cared to, quickly. :)

I read somewhere about a special tool for bleeding thd ABS, block? Some stated it wasn't necessary.

Today is new booster and master day. Yay.
 

MacEwen

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Ok. Mystery solved.


There was no leak because all the fluid bled back into booster. Good times.

Oh. After wrestling booster into place. I see its not correct. More good times.

Although the port held 12 inch plus of vac, booster was still bad too. So problem was hidden. Booster had a quart of fluid in it. Holds quite a bit. Lol
 

TimboSHO

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Wow, that is really quite something! I would have guessed one or the other, but have never experienced that much of a fluid leak that isn't visible from the outside! Good work!
 

MacEwen

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So question. Both replacement master cylinders that I've looked at lack the port on bottom for sensor. Anyone know if this is a problem? Nearest I can tell its pigtail extension was unplugged anyway from harness end. (Edit: this is the cruise disable switch on 94 3.2 ATX. )

I remember seeing a TSB that this sensor can leak into wiring harness. Perhaps later parts deleted this sensor port? Or is it required by something? (Switch leaks and corrodes harness)


Yeah I figure the master was leaking, and as it sat fluid ruined booster seals, possibly diaphram too.

Well. Biggest pain is booster. So I'll find out today since I already have an MC and finally have correct booster.
 
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