Some drag racing ideas...

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DemonNeno

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So we've yet to remedy the squatting blues of the SHO. Considering most 14sec SHOs behave like a sick 1200hp motor, I'd say there must be a way to cure our issue. Some ideas? Perhaps running shocks out back from the wagons with the wide A-arm style (Which woudl suck regarding toe adjustments!) coupled with the gen 3 a-arms... I always feel like the narrow control arms cause too much weight transfer.

Any input?
 

DemonNeno

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And speaking of the crappy wagon control arms... I had a idea pop up in my head today while aligning one of these bastards... What IF we were to omit the starwheel style adjuster, add two fairly large eccentrics to both mounting bolts on the control arm (the bolts that bolt the arm onto the frame.. or brace.. or whatever you call it on the wagon setup)... Or even the continental control arms, minus the air suspension?

I feel the need to increase the lateral support of the arms simply due to the weight transfer. With our distribution ratio and typical powerbands, we're overpowering the suspension setup. Perhaps installing similiar dampeners to those found on the MTX motor to the balljoint and onto the frame to dampen the weight transfer? I can't picture this without altering the ride, though...

Any input? My SHO is going to be a sitting duck for the winter times as I dont want to rust out my '89... But I do want to make it a better car for the spring time chaos. :)
 

Hack

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Pretty simple solution. Prevent weight transfer. How, you ask? Coilovers, with extremely high rate springs in the rear. I am thinking 700 lb/in. And while you are at it, make 'em long. That way the tail end is jacked up good and high. If anyone thinks this idea is a no go, I am hoping to prove it works early next spring. I will do back to back runs with my road race springs, versus these "drag" rear springs. If that is not enough to stop weight transfer, WHEELIE BAR!!!!

Obviously, drag radials are a minimum requirement for this idea. Real drag slicks would be better. And yes, I have a set of SHOnut Stage 5 CV axles.

Besides alignment settings, and small lightweight rims/tires, I would not change anything else.
 

TrueBlue

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I've seen pictures of a 12-second Bonneville with hydraulically-lowered wheelie bars. They "press" (actually just prevent proactively ;) ) the rear from dipsy-doing. There's always airbagged or hydro'ed rears, but to rich for my blood.
 

DemonNeno

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But this was my point... how will a SHO with 700#/in springs out back drive on the road for other reasons? Also, to those who haven't realized this, there's a common misbelief with coilovers. If you alter your ride height, you've altered your alignment.

That's one of those turn offs to me. I don't like the idea of having to realign my car every time I lower/raise the height level. And the sad part is I'm an alignment tech! :p

The wheelie bars sound like a good idea.... How much $$$ would that cost, though?
 

TrueBlue

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That was the other setup I was going to suggest. What I'd love to see would be a setup that could return the car to road-course spec from in-car, i.e., a hydraulic/pneumatic "stiffener" of some sort.

The wheelie bars cost, dunno. Looked trick as ****, and if a 3,800 lb Bonnie can run the 1320 in 12, I'd imagine many of the SHO's here can too. As always, the key is getting that power down and keeping it there.
 

Mike Kopstain

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TrueBlue said:
The wheelie bars cost, dunno. Looked trick as ****, and if a 3,800 lb Bonnie can run the 1320 in 12, I'd imagine many of the SHO's here can too. As always, the key is getting that power down and keeping it there.

BadSSEI actually runs an 11.30 :). The "wheelie bars" are a good idea though they are not preventing wheelies. They actually put minor preload on the rear end. I'm in the same boat as Glen, but I wasn't going to make it public until we had some times to put down.

More or less, you need to determine what you want in the car and if you want a drag car, you want as much weight over the front tires as possible without adding extra weight. This means leave the battery up front, run the stock steel hood, and rip everything you can out of that back (spare and all). Run a decent set of drag radials (they should be all the SHO needs for it's low end torque). Raise the *** end up (this transfers weight to the front) and make sure the rear suspension is stiff. A cheap way to do this would be to get a set of metal spring helpers, not the cheap rubber ones.

When comparing the two rivals (the GTP and SHO) it's startling how similar the suspensions are down to the strut rods. So there is no need to swap suspension designs. If that suspension can take our loads of torque, it should be able to launch a SHO without protest. The difference mainly is that the SHO is pretty well balanced IIRC whereas the GTP has a 60/40 split with most of it's weight on the front wheels.

The SHO isn't magic... It's time to look at how some of the other FWD guys do it.
 

Lance Cheney

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DemonNeno said:
But this was my point... how will a SHO with 700#/in springs out back drive on the road for other reasons? Also, to those who haven't realized this, there's a common misbelief with coilovers. If you alter your ride height, you've altered your alignment.

That's one of those turn offs to me. I don't like the idea of having to realign my car every time I lower/raise the height level. And the sad part is I'm an alignment tech! :p

Swapping the springs on the coilovers isn't that hard but it is still enough of a PITA that I wouldn't want to do it just for drag racing. 10" long 1000lb springs should do a decent job without requiring a spring compressor though. And yes, it would generally drive like crap.

It shouldn't change the alignment much, other than camber (more positive), which won't hurt straight-line performance on non-driven wheels. The toe should be pretty well fixed, with only very minor changes as ride height is changed.

-Lance
 

Yamaha V6

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Umm guys?

I have 400# rears, and during recent street driving, the top strut mount piece has decided it doesn't like being attached to the strut / spring assembly anymore, due to the lightened 91 & the rebound of the 400# rears. Both Konis are also blown out back.

I'm currently trying to figure out how to retrofit some kind of retainer / stop for the strut / coil spring assembly to prevent it from dropping out the bottom when the load's taken off the car due to a bump or dip in the road.

FYI. The idea works on paper, anyway. :)
 

Hack

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The change in alignment is for the front camber. I normally run rather aggresive camber for road course use. I would perfer camber be as close to zero as possible on the front for maximum contact patch in a straight line.

Personally, I will be swapping the rear springs specifically to go drag racing. With practice (and lack of rust) it can be done very quickly. I do a prep day before any session of racing anyway, so this would not be a big deal.

If someone was more serious about going drag racing, they could do as Mike has suggested and build the car specifically for it. That way, you would not have to be concerned with swapping the springs.

The lightweight wheels and tires are for the back by the way, as I am limited in sizes on the front. I suppose I could swap brakes every time I go to the dragstrip. Nah. That is even more than I am willing to do.
 

Mike Kopstain

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Hack said:
The lightweight wheels and tires are for the back by the way, as I am limited in sizes on the front. I suppose I could swap brakes every time I go to the dragstrip. Nah. That is even more than I am willing to do.

If you're using 94' - 95' knuckles this isn't too hard. You can drop to 10.9's in a jiff. :)
 

Lance Cheney

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Yamaha V6 said:
Umm guys?

I have 400# rears, and during recent street driving, the top strut mount piece has decided it doesn't like being attached to the strut / spring assembly anymore, due to the lightened 91 & the rebound of the 400# rears. Both Konis are also blown out back.

I'm currently trying to figure out how to retrofit some kind of retainer / stop for the strut / coil spring assembly to prevent it from dropping out the bottom when the load's taken off the car due to a bump or dip in the road.

FYI. The idea works on paper, anyway. :)


You have the IPT setup? Did the bearing come out of the mount? Because that wasn't designed very well (at least the one that I got sure wasn't).

Also, just running to/from the dragstrip on those springs wouldn't hurt anything. Driving around all day sure would be nasty though.

-Lance
 

Hack

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Lance, I believe Fred has a set of Gary Morrell's coilovers. Correct me if I am wrong Fred.

Being as I was reinstalling my rears today after replacing the bent Koni, I got to thinking. What length of springs are you running Fred? I am running eight inch in the rear. If I did the 700s (or more) I would add a couple inches to that. Even at ten inches I am pretty sure the spring would still be "loose" with the strut fully extended. Of course I run my spring perches at a very low setting.
 

3.8Lwagon

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you could get the wagon suspension and add a set of helper bags to the rear :-D they realy help with launching.

hay mickey how about you help out the OTHER 3.8l guys and come up with a blow down adaptor with ic for the mp90. also i thought you were goign to offer a lsd for the atx
 

DemonNeno

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Hack said:
The change in alignment is for the front camber. I normally run rather aggresive camber for road course use. I would perfer camber be as close to zero as possible on the front for maximum contact patch in a straight line.

This can be a misconception in the right hands, here. First off, negative camber will aid a flatter contact patch when keeping in mind that the car will NEED to squat a bit, thus increasing camber... Enough to make that difference, at least. It does help to test and tune with camber, IMO. Get the hook on clean pavement and study the patches until there is minimal outter edge difference (in regards to the shade of the rubber embedded in the pavenment for those who I've lost with my explanation).

Also, someone mentioned that toe wouldn't change. Yes, toe WILL change. Quite a bit. Whenever the camber tweaks, it'll, in return, alter toe and vice versa. This should be a lesson taught to you by road racer SHOsters...

Personally, I will be swapping the rear springs specifically to go drag racing. With practice (and lack of rust) it can be done very quickly. I do a prep day before any session of racing anyway, so this would not be a big deal.

This is my point! My prep session consists of whatever my street prepped taurus can do out on any other street, let alone a track! We're obviously doing something wrong when WHEELIE BARS are discussed regarding a car that doesn't make enough peak torque on 18# of boost to compete with nearly ANY 18# boosted GTPs, and as Mikey said, we share many suspension traits.

I know talk is cheap and trying to convince even a few of you requires getting flamed (not all the time, but it's been proven to be the way of a stubborn enthusiast) but look at the big picture here: cars that out weigh us in the most bizzare ways are out performing us for an unexplainable reason, which really does have an explanation that many choose not to inquire about.

If someone was more serious about going drag racing, they could do as Mike has suggested and build the car specifically for it. That way, you would not have to be concerned with swapping the springs.

Again, even 240FW-TQ isn't some gut wrenching number. Especially when the power band consists of high, long #'s across the band. Ever watch a SHO launch? Looks like a Ford Ranger trying to drag a mobile home down the highway! I almost expect exhaust tips to be worn out on some rubber track!

First off, SHOs seem to always get this stupid spring treatment. Eibachs and Intrax both do this... The front sees far less of a drop than the back. It seems to put to play the rules of a RWD car in most cases, which generally mean the lower the front, the more you take from the rear wheels. Watch a Fox stang try to get somewhere with coil overs that ride it .25" from the ground. Not enough transfer to the back. Well our SHOs, ladies and gents, do the opposite of this and recieve the opposing treatment, unless you're crazy and enjoy reverse clutch-dumps....

The lightweight wheels and tires are for the back by the way, as I am limited in sizes on the front. I suppose I could swap brakes every time I go to the dragstrip. Nah. That is even more than I am willing to do.

This is why I like the idea of weighing down the front brakes w/ 13" PBRs.... Call me crazy, but I honestly believe the SHO has too little to pork up the front end of the car and too much to even it out. Again, don't misunderstand me, this IS great, but not for a FWD MTX or even a ATX w/ 240ft-lbs!

So those metal coil helpers sound like a good idea, but also make it out to be more or less a band aid rather than a set of true drag springs for the SHO.. You know, the kind that will lower the front MORE than the *** end and accomplish a SLIGHTLY higher spring rate to keep the ride at least streetable and at the ease of not having to rip them out everytime you want to drive to work.. or on the highway. Please don't mention any spring cutting. I'm not in for the looks of a "SLAMMED" SHO... I'm just trying to help the poor ******* keep it's teeth in the pavement and off my wheel wells and rocker panels!
 

Mike Kopstain

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Neno, the spring block will raise the rear higher than the front and since they're metal, the effective spring rate will definetly be up.

We'll have a go at it. Our cam test car is going to be our show vehicle from now on. You can all expect it to show up at Lapeer this fall.
 

Yamaha V6

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Yes, Gary's Coilovers.
I believe they are 8" Hypercoils. FYI, Eibach also sells coils, ~$75 ea. they said. Josh T also sells the Hypers, per an email he just sent me this weekend.

Lance, Josh mentioned you might be interested in repairing the coilovers I have? :)

For speed of returning to driveability & future security, I may be going back to a stock style Koni / Eibach setup, but I'd really like to find a stiffer spring. Having the coilovers is fantastic for the track - it's great to see a Porsche rolling the body, while on the same curve, you're dead flat. :D

Busting them up that quickly isn't something I'm looking to do, however, so I'm exploring options.
 

1slickRED89

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not that i'm the least bit interested in drag racing, but to me it seems the best way to prevent squat, both for acceration and braking. is to build antidive geometery in the the front and rear lower suspention. that mean lining up the pivot axis of the LCA's with the center of mass of the car. i came up with a few designs, but it means bassically redesigning most the car's geometery, so i gave up. Peace_Corey
 

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