smokin_joe

[black92]

For those that might have read this post, here is the other side of the story and explanation of the situation.

Last fall, Joe and I made a deal regarding building Gen III subframes for our cars. Since his dad (and him) have experience welding and the supplies, the deal was that they would make the subframes and I would supply the Gen III subframes. We were going to make 3 subframes - one for Joe and two for me.

Joe made his subframe first after we drove down to Rockford and picked it up. Joe paid me $30 for gas since we drove my van down. I paid for this subframe and since the seller didn't have any use for the FN74 caliper brackets, I gave them to Joe since I wouldn't downgrade to '96+ brakes as I have Cobra brakes already.

Then Joe and his dad made the second subframe since the first one was successful. Once that was done, Michelle and I picked it up and it sat in the garage until just recently when we installed it into the red '90.

Last month, the third subframe was finished, but before it was done, Joe told me that he wanted $100 to cover the costs of the welding materials since his father and him used more then they thought they would on the subframes. I felt that Joe was taking advantage of me since I already did all the running around to get everything we needed for the subframes, which wasn't cheap and took a lot of time. I felt that Joe already got quite a bit out of me since I delivered his subframe to him and always delivered and picked up my subframes from his parents house. He was also supposed to supply the Gen I/II motor and transmission mounts for one of the subframes, but I ended up having to find, purchase, and pick up those as well even though he had a V6 subframe that was already damaged and couldn't be used again that he could have chopped up for these mounts.

I agreed to pay the $100 because I wanted the 3rd subframe, especially after all the running around to pick up all 3 subframes, motor mounts, etc. I picked up the subframe, but didn't leave money since nobody was home and I didn't want to leave $100 cash there.

After looking at the third subframe, it was very clear that the welding wasn't as nicely done as it was on the second subframe. I wasn't happy with this since he wanted $100 for welding supplies, yet the welds weren't solid or continuous and didn't penetrate completely where they should. Also, there was no access to the front motor mount (for the nut). In the second subframe, the original hole on the bottom for the Gen III motor mount nut was patched with a piece of sheet metal welded on and an access hole was drilled so you can install the front motor mount nut. On the third subframe, no hole was drilled and the original hole was not patched - making that motor mount not accessible.

I wanted Joe to fix this subframe before I gave him the $100, otherwise there would be no incentive for him to do it since he had his money and had his own subframe.

I was in contact with Joe through *** and told him the subframe wasn't finished and that was why I wasn't just going to pay him the $100 I agreed to pay him. After I told Joe it wasn't finished, he told me that I should have had his dad touch up the subframe while I picked it up - except I arranged to pick it up, but it was at a time that he wasn't going to be home. I picked it up and didn't look at it close enough to realize that it wasn't finished until recently when I dropped a motor on it, only to find out that I couldn't access the bolt for the front motor mount.

Michelle sent Joe a PM last night reminding him that the subframe wasn't complete and asked what he was going to do about it - suggesting he pick it up and finish it to resolve this whole situation. Joe read the PM last night and hasn't responded, which is why I am making this post. Hopefully Joe will read it and contact me so we can get this settled.

Just be careful what kind of deals you make with Joe. I learned my lesson.

 

[smokin joe]

It started out as 2 subframes one for you and one for me, to me that was a fair trade. Then you kind of sprung the third one on me and I agreed to do it and help you out since I was already going to be doing the other 2 since you supplied my subframe and let me keep the brakes.

And I know you are complaining about going to rockford to pick it up but that was your part of the deal I had nothing to do with suppling the subframes that was your end, I went with because you didnt want to have to drive it to your house and then back to mine when the work was to be done and then asked for money for gas I gave you $40 because thats all that I had on me and asked if that was ok and you said yes.

And I did supply one of the sets of motor/trans mounts that I had off of my subframe, I needed you to get the first set because I needed a set until I got the subframe off of my car, the other reason that I had for not using the motor mounts off of the other subframe was after I looked at them they were all twisted from hitting a wall at 60mph and didnt think those should be used.

And about driving the subframes to and from my house Adam I have an SHO I cant fit a subframe in my car, Im going to school an hour away from home I dont have the time or money, and the only vehicle that we have to transport something like that is my dads company car that im not insured or allowed to drive if I could have helped with that I would have but I couldnt. And I guess I thought you understood that you would drop it off I would do the work and you would pick it up, that usually is how things work.

All the subframes were TIG welded by my dad who has VERY VERY good welding skills hes not a noob, And I assure you that the welds are very strong, I didnt know that he didnt patch up the front motor mount hole untill right now you never said anything about it, part of the reason I told you to pick it up when my dad was home was because I had to leave for school before the subframe was finish welded and my dad doesnt know everything about how everything had to be and I hadnt had a chance to look over it at all

And I knew nothing about anything being wrong with the last subframe untill over a week after you picked up the subframe and I asked you for the money and then you said something to me that you werent happy with some of the welding you never said anything specific about it or asked me to pick it up untill I got Michelles PM lastnight

And about me not responding I told her in my PM before that one that I had just gotten back from driving over 350 miles yesterday, I was exhausted and had class all day today and this is the first time I have really had a chance to sit down and go on the internet

And thanks for saying that you have learned you lesson dealing with me, I think all of this has been due to lack of comunication, And again I had no Idea that the front mount wasnt fully compleated since I didnt have a chance to check it over, and As far as you saying that I was trying to make money off of you by asking for $100 i hope you werent serious. The only money you have into it for me was the $150 for the subframe and the $100 that you paid me in the end so you gave me. So $250 for two gen3 subframes I dont think is a bad deal at all, I know you have more money into it for your 2 sets of mounts and having to drop them off and pick them up from my house, but I dont think $125 a subframe is a bad deal, and I will talk to my dad and see what we can do to fix it but again up untill you posted this I had no clue what you werent happy with so I had no clue what was going on you need to tell me these things

 

[black92]

Joe, subframes do fit in the back of a SHO, I've had it back there before. And don't tell me you don't have time or money. I just gave you $100. So I am leaving it up to you to come pick it up, finish it, and drop it back off. I have more then $600 invested in the mess not $250.

My part of the deal was paying for your subframe. If that included delivery to your house that would have been stated. It was not. I did that to be helpful.

Since this turned into a bigger issue, I rather treat this as business then favors/deals/whatever you want to call it, so you can either choose to pay for those brake brackets or return them when you either pick up or deliver the subframe when it is done.

 

[smokin joe]

If you want to treat this as business, I would charge someone that I wasnt doing a favor for, $500 per subframe with mounts supplied and you drop it off and pick it up,

Alot of time goes into doing them ask anyone who has done one, Making the jig to locate the mounts, dis-assembly of the subframe since they had everything on them, cutting off the old mounts and thats fun to do, preping the areas on the subframe and mounts so you can weld them, fitting the mounts to it and getting them in the right place, welding them in place, cutting and forming pieces of metal to weld on, and finally finish welding everything on, this takes a good amount of time to do and alot of it you need a helping hand, so to cover my time and materials thats what I would charge

And I said/ment you have $250 going to me and thats it, the $150 subframe and the $100, yes you have more invested in it on your own part not mine.

You cant go changing things around like this, but if you want it to be a business transaction your total comes to:
$1,000 - $100paid -$50for FN74 brackets -$150 subframe -$50 for the rest of gas to get subframe= $650

 

[Michelle]

Let's just resolve this thing - arrange to have this subframe picked up, finished, and dropped back off. This deal was made over a year ago between the two of you. Adam paid you the $100 you wanted. He would like the subframe completed. Figure it out soon please.

 

[smokin joe]

Thats what im getting at as I stated I didnt know what exactly was wrong with it besides that "it wasnt done" This wasnt brought to my attention until I asked for the money,

And as far as my time goes, it is limited Adam im a full time student paying my bills for my appartment and school with my money that I make working my a$$ off during the summer, school is my main focus right now ask Michelle she knows how much time it takes

As I said I will talk to my dad and see what I can work out

 

[Michelle]

Thats what im getting at as I stated I didnt know what exactly was wrong with it besides that "it wasnt done" This wasnt brought to my attention until I asked for the money,

And as far as my time goes, it is limited Adam im a full time student paying my bills for my appartment and school with my money that I make working my a$$ off during the summer, school is my main focus right now ask Michelle she knows how much time it takes

As I said I will talk to my dad and see what I can work out

But also understand Joe that Adam works full-time (plus overtime) right now since I am not working while I am student teaching and he is supporting the both of us when it comes to all of our bills and rent, so his time is limited as well.

Let me (or Adam) know when you get this figured out. We'd like to get it done as soon as possible to finish putting together the other car a bit more before winter really hits. Fall is busy with helping both our families close up things before winter and I graduate in December, so I have a lot of school work to finish up before then too.

 

[smokin joe]

I understand that, and dont forget about my dad who does the welding, he puts his 10+ hrs in everyday during the week and has alot to do around the house esp in the fall, thats why I have to talk to him to see when he can weld it,

I just wish the first PM would have been sent to me before I even asked for the money say something like,
(Hey I didnt leave the money at your house no one was home, and when I looked at the subframe I think some things were forgotten could you come by and look at it and Ill give you the money and you can fix anything that need to be)
Instead of picking it up not saying aything about not wanting to pay me and not saying anything about being unhappy and something is not compleated on the subframe untill I asked for the money, nothing was ever said about what was wrong or fixing anything untill Michelles PM last night and this post today.

 

[smokin joe]

I wanted Joe to fix this subframe before I gave him the $100, otherwise there would be no incentive for him to do it since he had his money and had his own subframe.

I was in contact with Joe through *** and told him the subframe wasn't finished and that was why I wasn't just going to pay him the $100 I agreed to pay him.

Michelle sent Joe a PM last night reminding him that the subframe wasn't complete and asked what he was going to do about it - suggesting he pick it up and finish it to resolve this whole situation. Joe read the PM last night and hasn't responded, which is why I am making this post. Hopefully Joe will read it and contact me so we can get this settled.

Just be careful what kind of deals you make with Joe. I learned my lesson.

Adam Im not sure where you are getting the part where you say
"I was in contact with Joe through *** and told him the subframe wasn't finished and that was why I wasn't just going to pay him the $100 I agreed to pay him."

I was never informed of this I have all the PM's, all I have is in the response to the first PM of me asking you for the $100 you say
"my second subframe isn’t finished, and it lacks a lot of welding compared to the first two"
This is the only thing you say about the subframe being wrong in all of the rest of the PM's and the thread, untill I got home yesterday and get the PM from Michelle asking me to edit the post I made about you here, And I replied said I would post up that I got the money and I did so. And then I got the PM from her "But since Adam paid you, I am sure you will do the right thing and pick up this subframe and finish it so this whole situation is resolved" I was tired from the drive and confused by that because you never said anything so I was going to PM you after class and saw this thread saying everything and saying what was not done on the subframe.

What im getting at is you never said any of this to me and I didnt know of it untill you made this thread nothing was said in the PM's about this

 

[Michelle]

This isn't resolving anything - the fact is the subframe needs to be finished. Let Adam know when you can make it work - Thanksgiving break, Christmas break, whatever works. I really don't want to hear anymore about it.

 

[smokin joe]

No shit hey, I just dont like the fact that he is lying about things to make me look bad

 

[Michelle]

You both made each other look bad by both threads. There's no reason to argue anything anymore - you got your $100 and you said you will get this subframe finished. Keep your word and get it done soon, then we can all call this resolved as well as it can be.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Just make it right already. :shakehead

In the time you've spent arguing about this, you could have picked up the subframe, finished it properly, and returned it and everyone would be happy.

 

[smokin joe]

Yeah I know, understand it wasn’t even said that he wanted it picked up and what touched up until yesterday with this thread. That’s what frustrated me, all of this wouldn’t even be needed if he would have actually PMed me asking me to fix it. black92 never said anything about what was wrong or fixing it in any PM's after talking about it being done and having black92 picking it up. And then this thread was made without black92 ever asking me to pick it up and fix it and explaining what was wrong with it, and then saying that he asked me to fix it before he gave me the $100 isn't true. This didn’t make me very happy because black92 said nothing of this to me, but I did say I will fix what is wrong with it. I wish it was as easy as just zipping over picking it up and fixing what’s wrong and dropping it off, both parties have busy lives, and Adam and Michelle I hope you understand this and can work with me on this part, I assure you it will be corrected, but what all is even wrong with it just the bolt hole for the front motor mount? My dad said he test fit the front mount with a spare I have but I guess he missed something??

 

[black92]

Yeah I know, understand it wasn’t even said that he wanted it picked up and what touched up until yesterday with this thread. That’s what frustrated me, all of this wouldn’t even be needed if he would have actually PMed me asking me to fix it.

Not true. Michelle PMed you Sunday night. You viewed the message, yet you still have failed to reply to the message.

You made the post about me after one reply. I explained to you why I shouldnt owe you $100. Instead of trying to work out the issue you jumped to the Hall of Shame and quickly made me look bad.

If you REREAD the original post you will know what needs to be finished on the subframe. The ONLY way this issue will be resolved is by you taking the effort to finish the subframe in a timely manner. I sent you a check a day after you bashed me. I would appreciate it if you would take care of this soon. No more excuses Joe. Just finish it and we can all move on.

 

[dantheman68]

This whole thing is quite funny to me... Why would you agree to paying someone then decide by yourself, without working anything out or communicating that "well as far as I'm concerned Joe, I owe you nothing".... So you put 600 dollars into a couple of subframes?... I guess if you took that to a shop they would see that and tell you since you supplied the pieces they will supply the materials and labor for you.

and why would you pick up something and take it home if you knew it was faulty?... I remember buying a MTX from adam a few years back that was sealed with RTV... I picked it up from his house, and had it sent to bizzy... little did I know that RTV in the trans was a no-no... so did I bitch and send it back to adam and tell him to make it right?... NO i had it fixed... I picked it up and accepted it as it was... not receiving a penny back with Adam... and i was fine with that.

 

[Michelle]

This whole thing is quite funny to me... Why would you agree to paying someone then decide by yourself, without working anything out or communicating that "well as far as I'm concerned Joe, I owe you nothing".... So you put 600 dollars into a couple of subframes?... I guess if you took that to a shop they would see that and tell you since you supplied the pieces they will supply the materials and labor for you.

and why would you pick up something and take it home if you knew it was faulty?... I remember buying a MTX from adam a few years back that was sealed with RTV... I picked it up from his house, and had it sent to bizzy... little did I know that RTV in the trans was a no-no... so did I bitch and send it back to adam and tell him to make it right?... NO i had it fixed... I picked it up and accepted it as it was... not receiving a penny back with Adam... and i was fine with that.

Are you freakin' kidding me Dan? You want to get on this too? This is absolutely ridiculous.

You know what, this isn't even worth a reply anymore. I will watch my inbox for a message from Joe telling me when he is picking up the subframe. Goodnight.

 

[dantheman68]

Are you freakin' kidding me Dan? You want to get on this too? This is absolutely ridiculous.

You know what, this isn't even worth a reply anymore. I will watch my inbox for a message from Joe telling me when he is picking up the subframe. Goodnight.

HA! Why are you speaking for Adam then?! its his issue... speaking for him obviously isn't helping... even though we understand how much you like doing that.

I just thought we all were putting in our 2 cents And i agree it is ridiculus...

 

[smokin joe]

Not true. Michelle PMed you Sunday night. You viewed the message, yet you still have failed to reply to the message.

You made the post about me after one reply. I explained to you why I shouldnt owe you $100. Instead of trying to work out the issue you jumped to the Hall of Shame and quickly made me look bad.

If you REREAD the original post you will know what needs to be finished on the subframe. The ONLY way this issue will be resolved is by you taking the effort to finish the subframe in a timely manner. I sent you a check a day after you bashed me. I would appreciate it if you would take care of this soon. No more excuses Joe. Just finish it and we can all move on.

This was the PM you sent me after I asked you for the $100 10 days earlier

Joe, As far as im concerned I owe you nothing. For starters you agreed to the original deal that I pay for the subframes and you do the fabrication. You also told me you were going to supply the engine mounts which you didn’t. When we picked up your subframe and parts I asked you to pay for gas. You gave me about $30. Im not sure how much it cost, but I will tell you that going from my house to your house, to Rockford, back to your house and then home cost way more then $30. Also my second subframe isn’t finished, and it lacks a lot of welding compared to the first two.

This is all you said about something being wrong with the subframe, we PMed eachother a couple more times about the money and still nothing was said about fixing it, Yes Michelle did say in her PM sunday night "But since Adam paid you, I am sure you will do the right thing and pick up this subframe and finish it so this whole situation is resolved" I checked that before I went to bed after driving 6hrs that day woke up went to school all day came home to PM you about fixing it and this post was already made in the hall of fame or shame, thats why I didnt reply to that because we were working it out here. And that is when I first learned what was even wrong and that you wanted it fixed, You still hadn't PMed me about fixing it or any of that before you made this thread.
I am working on when I can get home get a truck pick it up hopefully my dad can weld it that day and I can take it back, I cant do this during the week because of school, my dads work, and living 40miles from my parents house

 

[St Louis SHO]

Ya'll done yet? ... get on the phone, PM something... you all look like retards doing it here... No offence intended but it looks like some high school he said she said ********.