Realistic Goals...

[Turboba6]

Guys,

Looking Very Seriously Early Next year to Pick up a (4400Lb.) Lincoln MKS Turbo...Now I know thier not GN;s, but with ALL the Available Stuff, Stage 4+ tune, Meth, etc., thats out right now, can I get this car
from a Mid 14Second Slugg(In the HOT Weather), to a Mid 12??(Again in the Summer Weather...I'm FULLY Aware that Several folks Have Gone Very Low 12's in the 40degree Temps...And that NO ONE has broke an 11 Yet...

 

[First-SHO]

I promise you there will be at least 2 cars in 11's next year and mine being one.

 

[Turboba6]

Mine being there also then...gotta sell the 11Stang first...lol...

 

[steve142857]

I promise you there will be at least 2 cars in 11's next year and mine being one.

make that 3! lol

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

Hennessey blew up their MKS EB. Think it will be very hard to get any of these cars into the 11's in 75+ degree weather. There are several issues. #1. The DI fuel pump starts to run out of pressure when you go for max boost levels. Even with a KB BAP which I have, that only gives one about another 200 psi add for short periods of time.
#2. The drive train may not be able to handle the extra torque & HP required to do this. You will definitely need to use slicks or much stickier front tires, to keep from getting the "dreaded shut-down mode". Bigger turbos and CNC'd heads will definitely increase flow, but again, if you can't get the optimum amount of fuel to the engine, your A/F - Lambda numbers are going to go really lean. I would also consider a tranny temp gauge as well as a separate bigger transmission oil cooler.

Did find out that Flex and MKT don't have the same control arms in the front, that the SHO & I assume the MKT have. Thus the wagons produce more initial lift out of the box, than the SHO. So, the air bags that I installed, should potentially help me more than they did Darreli. May have to get the SHO arms, as I'm told they are interchangeable.

We really need a bigger DI pump..... HELP!

Hoping that I am wrong... and all of you make the 11's!

 

[First-SHO]

I hear what your saying, but I do know Livernois tunes run rich and we are only a tenth off 11's with just meth. Hook up will be crucial, but I don't see fuel as a problem. We also find no shut down if T/C is left on.

I will be able to see what the engine puts out and fuel readings are when Livernois adds my meth, bigger turbo's (internals in stock housing) and the addition of my 68 mm throttle body. I may do the Livernois heads as well. We will be dyno tune at that time as well.

 

[gregoire]

I hear what your saying, but I do know Livernois tunes run rich and we are only a tenth off 11's with just meth. Hook up will be crucial, but I don't see fuel as a problem. We also find no shut down if T/C is left on.

I will be able to see what the engine puts out and fuel readings are when Livernois adds my meth, bigger turbo's (internals in stock housing) and the addition of my 68 mm throttle body. I may do the Livernois heads as well. We will be dyno tune at that time as well.

I am .1 to .2 seconds slower with T/C on, isn't that counter productive? I suppose all the other mods will more than make up for it tho.

 

[Scrming]

I hear what your saying, but I do know Livernois tunes run rich and we are only a tenth off 11's with just meth. Hook up will be crucial, but I don't see fuel as a problem. We also find no shut down if T/C is left on.

I will be able to see what the engine puts out and fuel readings are when Livernois adds my meth, bigger turbo's (internals in stock housing) and the addition of my 68 mm throttle body. I may do the Livernois heads as well. We will be dyno tune at that time as well.

Can't wait until next spring... and the tracks open up!!!!! Looking forward to seeing you guys run again!

 

[Night hawk]

I think you can pull it off, I'm pretty sure the aftermarket will have more options to safely get into the 11's come spring. Personally I'll be very happy in the 12's!! Can't wait till spring track time. Good luck!

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

My tunes all run rich... until the DI pump starts to lose pressure. You can't solve the DI pump pressure in a tune. To get more HP, you have to have more volume of air and fuel. I logged the stock Ford tune... Man was it running rich...

If you get the air, via a 3 bar sensor, bigger turbos, better flowing heads or what have you... you have to have enough fuel to support it. The W/M or in Alky Control's system, can be 100% Methanol, helps a great deal, but you can only do so much. When I got the 9 shutdowns in 12 runs, I had the T/C on, off and I tried various tire pressures. The only thing that helped was attempting (successfully) a burn out before I got to the tree. I have found that T/C on helped me at first, but most of the time now, I do better with the T/C off, as I get quicker and firmer shifts between gears.

I am also running a higher axle ratio, due to the fact that my Conti DW's are 255-45-18. Nitto 05R 285-40-18 are almost exactly the same RPM as the Conti's. Mounted and ready to go... Testing at Bradenton begins in January!

I think Darreli would have been in the 11's if he had different front tires on this past fall. The DW's which I am also running, seem to get harder when it is cold. When I was logging & testing different Torrie tunes down here last spring, the temps were in the high 80's, and I had no traction issues, unless I power braked at 2K+.

 

[Turboba6]

Thanks Bob, Actually it's Funny, in my Automatic 11 Stang it's the same thing, I'm supercharged and have the KB BAP wired Full Max, it's Not DI, but the Same pump from what I understand, and I go Consistent 10.80's at ~ 129-130..I Know different Animal..Anyhow I'd be REAL Happy just going mid 12's in the Hot Weather with the Lincoln..I'll stay tuned to the Forum till I get the car in the Spring..Thanks..

 

[First-SHO]

I am .1 to .2 seconds slower with T/C on, isn't that counter productive? I suppose all the other mods will more than make up for it tho.

My last 2 time at the track I ran .1-.2 faster with the T/C ON. Don't ask me why and I think Darrell ran his T/C on as well when he ran the 12.1 @ 117.

 

[gregoire]

My last 2 time at the track I ran .1-.2 faster with the T/C ON. Don't ask me why and I think Darrell ran his T/C on as well when he ran the 12.1 @ 117.

Almost sounds like getting the most power to the wheels all the time works best to a point, but once that threshold is reached then grip/traction becomes a bigger factor? Make sense?

Like as you start creating more horsepower/torque you reach a point when it becomes advantageous to leave T/C on.

Just thinking out loud here.

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

I concur....

I think that T/C on when it's cold, cuts the fronts spinning down... The key is getting those front tires to hook up before the system shuts down due to excessive front spin, as rears always will, due to slipping RWD clutches. Tires definitely make a big difference when it's cold. Believe the Hankooks that some have added as aftermarket, are softer/stickier when it's cold. Stock Performance Goodyears may also hook up better than some others, like my DW's when it's cold. EB Engine really likes cold air!
This is why W/M works so well on these engines.

At some point, if you can generate enough HP/Torque.... You will need stickier front tires, no matter the outside temp.

As for the KB BAP... the in tank fuel pump which is boosted by the KB BAP, is only a fuel delivery vehicle for the DI pump which pressurizes the DI system to as much as 2,400 PSI. It's possible that the DI pump isn't getting enough fuel, but very unlikely from the logging numbers that I have seen. They point to the DI pump not being able to pump enough fuel to the injectors when the boost levels are really high. I'm not an engineer, but it seems to me that the boost fluctuation levels could be caused by the DI pump volume, not just because the turbos are small. This opinion comes from the logs that show the highest boost levels are not at max RPM.

Feel free to explain why I may be wrong... I often am....

 

[darreli]

Sorry guys for not posting much on here lately. Anyway..I'm pretty sure I'll be in the 11's come spring Anyway, I think Bob is right and I would have ran 11's this year with different tires. I'll try to address that over the winter but I'm honestly hoping there will be more 20" tires available.

My car has never ran lean...Dan runs his tunes rich 10.5:1 and it's always ran that, no matter where I am in the powerband. I think the DI pump is good for some more power but definately should be replaced at sometime soon. Problem is.....no one has been able to help in this department! I was planning on making it out to PRI this year but commitments here prevented me from doing that....Rick said, however, that he saw no new parts for the Ecoboost.....major bummer in my book. Their heads will be done and the turbo upgrade will be done by spring and I plan on thoroughly testing both of those!! The car should be making great power at that point and I'm not really even entertaining the idea of a rollcage in this car so I'm not sure I'll ever need a new DI pump.....only time will tell.

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

My Lambda numbers have always remained in the safe zone. However, I have seen my DI pressures drop below 1,000 PSI a couple times when at really high boost levels. This happened for maybe .3 seconds, which is just a blip. The problem is that no one really knows what the minimum DI pressure level is, and/or how long it can be low. Unfortunately, at some point when one of us finds that out, the EB engine will have gone very lean and likely burn a piston.

Catch my one solution in my new thread: "Slicks on a Brick"!

 

[First-SHO]

Bob,

You gotta understand we are not needing to run the boost levels you are to almost achieve 11's. We are very conservative and maybe is the reason why Dan's programs stay rich.

I did speak with Rick and Dan said there will be no problem getting into the 11's with the current pump.

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

I don't think my boost levels are any higher than yours if you are running a 3 bar MAPv sensor like Darreli. Just because Torrie has been fine tuning my Brick, doesn't mean we haven't been just as conservative as Dan. Remember, my vehicle weighs at least 400 lbs more than yours.

Maybe I'm stupid, but I just don't get how you can make the kind of power you are going to attempt to make, without more fuel and air. How much additional HP & Torque do you think you need to get into the 11's from the 12.4??? Do you log all of your runs and review the data? Or are you just taking Dan and Rich's word that Livernois is very conservative? I have logged literally dozens, maybe over a hundred WOT runs, at the strip, but mostly on the street. Remember, a half second faster ET is a big jump and will take big new HP gains.

. Don't get me wrong, I like Rich and have no quarrel with Livernois. I have their tunes for my Flex and have run the stage 4 for at least 1,000 miles. Haven't had them send me 4+ however. I always planned to compare the 2 Bar canned tunes of Livernois and Torrie at the strip, but never have done so. If I lived near Detroit, I would have been in and had them dyno tune my Flex, but I don't.

Ask ANDY about some of the Magnacharged G8 GT's they (Livernois) have built, and how they had to add a Boost-A-Pump, and are now developing dual fuel pumps to gain enough fuel to handle the horsepower potential of all their mods. Based on posts on two different G8 forums, there were a few unhappy customers at first.

I hope Dan is right about the DI pump.

 

[LMSRick]

I don't think my boost levels are any higher than yours if you are running a 3 bar MAPv sensor like Darreli. Just because Torrie has been fine tuning my Brick, doesn't mean we haven't been just as conservative as Dan. Remember, my vehicle weighs at least 400 lbs more than yours.

Maybe I'm stupid, but I just don't get how you can make the kind of power you are going to attempt to make, without more fuel and air. How much additional HP & Torque do you think you need to get into the 11's from the 12.4??? Do you log all of your runs and review the data? Or are you just taking Dan and Rich's word that Livernois is very conservative? I have logged literally dozens, maybe over a hundred WOT runs, at the strip, but mostly on the street. Remember, a half second faster ET is a big jump and will take big new HP gains.

. Don't get me wrong, I like Rich and have no quarrel with Livernois. I have their tunes for my Flex and have run the stage 4 for at least 1,000 miles. Haven't had them send me 4+ however. I always planned to compare the 2 Bar canned tunes of Livernois and Torrie at the strip, but never have done so. If I lived near Detroit, I would have been in and had them dyno tune my Flex, but I don't.

Ask ANDY about some of the Magnacharged G8 GT's they (Livernois) have built, and how they had to add a Boost-A-Pump, and are now developing dual fuel pumps to gain enough fuel to handle the horsepower potential of all their mods. Based on posts on two different G8 forums, there were a few unhappy customers at first.

I hope Dan is right about the DI pump.

How much boost are you running? Darrell's car makes 14 lbs. with the 3-bar and his current setup. In cold weather, it may make another .5-1 lbs. A stock SHO makes 11.5-12 lbs.

Darrell's best ET is 12.13, so he's not too far from 11's. Mike has the same mods installed minus the methanol injection kit, which will be installed soon. We've fine tuned both of these cars after viewing data logs or spending time with them at the track, but the canned tunes are very close.

We've been using Boost-A-Pump's as long as I've been with the company (almost 9 years) and the only person I can think of that had a failed BAP or burned up a pump is a G8 owner who turned it to the max setting and also runs his car very low on fuel. They work great for us in G8's to around 550-560 RWHP. We developed the complete kit for a G8 we recently did that made 640 RWHP. The BAP will still be suffice for most builds. We have a Shelby here that makes nearly 900 RWHP with a stock pump and BAP and the car has hundreds of track passes an no issues.

-Rick