Melted/ Wasted Catalytic Bank 1?

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y2k2

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Hello all,
Hoping to get some help here. Got a 2010 SHO. What happened initially like a few weeks earlier was that my brother got a P0301 code which if I remember is s misfire somewhere. Then like 2 weeks later he noticed that the car would go nowhere or rev beyound 3K RPM's. So when I went to check it I pulled a P0420 code which is catalytic threshold below efficiency on Bank 1 and that usually means the cat or cats are bad. Although could also be oxygen sensors. Sure enough, pulled the cat out and it was destroyed. Replaced the cat. Told my brother to replace both o2 sensors to be on the safe side but they only had one so he's got a brand new primary but the old secondary is still on. So another code p0420 comes up after driving it for 20 or so miles. I mean there's something that destroyed the cat in the first place. But in 20 minutes? Is it possible? Unless it's running super rich or there's an ignition problem or whatever else. Now, for the folks that have experienced this type of thing, what is the common problems on this particular vehicle? I checked the coils and they fire fine as far as I can tell. If anyone has some insight I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
 

SHOdded

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Leaky fuel injectors are a known cause of destroyed cats on Gen 4 SHOs I'd look into that first. Since you checked the coils, I assume you noted the spark plug condition as well? Should be black deposits or smell of fuel if there is any excess oil/fuel in the chamber.

Also check the turbo/intake piping and CAC for oil pooling. If so, you have a PCV issue as well, and need to switch to a low volatility full synthetic engine oil, along with a cleanout of the CAC.
 

y2k2

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Thank you for the tip on leaky fuel injectors, I didn't know that. We'll have to investigate that. My bro checked the plugs he said they're fine. I'll have to check them myself. I mean, something is staining that rear cat and its either one of the 3 cylinders in the rear.
 

SHOdded

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Replace the secondary O2 (bank 1) before making any determinations. If the cat was "destroyed", then very likely that sensor also needs R&R. If it is sending faulty data, that P0420 can be triggered. You can benchtest the old sensor to make sure it is switching correctly, there are videos on yootoob to show you how.
http://www.obd-codes.com/p0420
 

y2k2

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Replace the secondary O2 (bank 1) before making any determinations. If the cat was "destroyed", then very likely that sensor also needs R&R. If it is sending faulty data, that P0420 can be triggered. You can benchtest the old sensor to make sure it is switching correctly, there are videos on yootoob to show you how.
http://www.obd-codes.com/p0420
Oh yes definitely, thanks, will do.
 

y2k2

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So my brother dropped off the car now I own the damn car till I fix it. :cussing:Not that it won't be quite an adventure but I'm so busy with my jobs that have no time to own this car now. But I did get a chance to drive it. If you take off very very slowly, you won't notice there's a problem. The second you go over about 15 to 20% throttle, the car just doesn't pick up. Kind of feels like when you are in a high gear on a stickshift and you smash the gas, the car will just not pickup. No codes stored yet since the catalytic replacement. Secondary 02 was replaced though he said. And I have the old plugs that he replaced after new cat was installed. They look good. If the pcv system was clogged I would see crap on plugs, but I'll still check it out.
 
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y2k2

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So I got some time to look at it. The car really has no power, even after the new cat was put on. I should say the car had more power when the new cat was installed (bank 1). But after a while it got worse and no codes still. Anything over 20% throttle it just chokes on itself. And it's not the tranny starting off in 5th gear. I shifted manually. I hooked a vacuum gauge and idle it gets about 20" of vacuum. At 2K RPM, it drops to 19 which isn't bad still. Now at 3-3,500 RPM's the vacuum drops to about 13. At the same time I hear rattle in the exhaust so my conclusion at this point is that there is catalytic debris blocking the exhaust somewhere in the back by the mufflers. Have to be some big pieces stuck in there somewhere.

Now, what caused bank 1 cat to go bad? Not sure but I suspect a bad fuel pressure regulator. I was looking around for repair manuals online to get shematics on engine parts and min and max psi but there's nothing on this damn car that I could fine. (not sure why that was underlined)
Anyway, I was able to find a fuel service port in the back towards the firewall on the left hand side. I connected a fuel pressure tester and I noticed the following:
Engine Off, Key on: 65psi
Engine running: 70 psi with needle fluctuating back and forth

Now, I couldn't find a vacuum hose for what I believe is the fuel pressure regulator. Instead there is a connector so this regulator must be an electronic one. Yeah, I haven't kept up with technology as much. Anyway. This thing that I'm calling the regulator makes a noise sort of like an air hammer. When I pulled the connector it quiets down. Pressure stays at 70 psi with a fluctuating needle which leads me to believe the regulator is bad. And yes, non liquid filled gauges will probably fluctuate. But I'm using a tester which is good and I never had it fluctuate like that. And 70 psi at idle? That's a big high from what I've known pressures to be. And again, I don't have figures to go by or a manual to go by. So is the car dumping way too much fuel? why did only cat on bank 1 go and not 1? A fuel pressure regulator would affect all cylinders I would think. So this is where I'm at with the car. Ill post pics and a vid of the fuel pressure test.
 
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SHOdded

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We have had a couple of cases where the low pressure fuel pump (in-tank) control module has gone bad. Used to be 30-35 psi was good pressure at the rail for these pumps back in the day. 65 psi does sound too high a baseline for a non-running engine (KOEO), but don't know for sure re: these DI engines.

EDIT: I did see 65 psi mentioned in the Ford Edge FSM for the 3.5 engine under KOER conditions, so 70 psi seems within normal range. How much does the needle fluctuate?

EDIT 2: This video on YouTube addresses an underhood rattle on the Chevy Equinox high pressure fuel pump. Apparently they have TSBs out for the timing chain and the HPFP.
 
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TimboSHO

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70psi sounds pretty normal for a car with direct injection. The 'fuel pressure regulator with an electrical plug' is the direct injection pump (high pressure fuel pump). I know a lot of the GM ones are noisy (as referenced above), not sure about Ford.
 

itwonder

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Where did the debris from the failed cat go? Is it partially plugging the exhaust?
 

y2k2

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We have had a couple of cases where the low pressure fuel pump (in-tank) control module has gone bad. Used to be 30-35 psi was good pressure at the rail for these pumps back in the day. 65 psi does sound too high a baseline for a non-running engine (KOEO), but don't know for sure re: these DI engines.

EDIT: I did see 65 psi mentioned in the Ford Edge FSM for the 3.5 engine under KOER conditions, so 70 psi seems within normal range. How much does the needle fluctuate?

EDIT 2: This video on YouTube addresses an underhood rattle on the Chevy Equinox high pressure fuel pump. Apparently they have TSBs out for the timing chain and the HPFP.
The needle fluctuates very unsteadily at least 20psi in either direction. Normally fuel rails that dampeners in the rail that get rid of pump pulsation and that's why I'm saying this can't be normal...? As far as the pressure I guess then it might be ok. In older vehicles we used to unplug the vacuum hose off the regulator and make sure pressure jumped higher but here I'm at a loss. I unplugged the connector and same pressure stayed, only thing was the regulator got quieter.
Thanks for the vid!
 

y2k2

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Where did the debris from the failed cat go? Is it partially plugging the exhaust?
Not sure that it went anywhere. Anytime I rev it. I hear rattle inside the exhaust somewhere. I'm thinking it's plugging the exhaust if my vacuum gauge reading drops to a mere 13 or so inches of vacuum. I'm gonna disconnect the exhaust just past the cats and see if the reading improves.
 

y2k2

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70psi sounds pretty normal for a car with direct injection. The 'fuel pressure regulator with an electrical plug' is the direct injection pump (high pressure fuel pump). I know a lot of the GM ones are noisy (as referenced above), not sure about Ford.

Good to know. Thanks. changed quite a bit since the carburetor days lol
 

itwonder

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Not sure that it went anywhere. Anytime I rev it. I hear rattle inside the exhaust somewhere. I'm thinking it's plugging the exhaust if my vacuum gauge reading drops to a mere 13 or so inches of vacuum. I'm gonna disconnect the exhaust just past the cats and see if the reading improves.

The rattling you hear are pieces of converter honeycomb material in the exhaust pipe. It will migrate toward the back, and tend to gather where there is a tight turn in the pipe.
 

y2k2

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The rattling you hear are pieces of converter honeycomb material in the exhaust pipe. It will migrate toward the back, and tend to gather where there is a tight turn in the pipe.
Yes, correct, that's the rattle I hear. Just waiting for the weekend to take the exhaust apart. Need to build up some vacuum somehow...
 

y2k2

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So this is the port I hooked on to.


And this is what I was calling the regulator which Ford states it's not. Ford says the FPR sits right on the rail which btw you can't even get to unless you pull the top plenum off or so I believe.



And this is the vid of what it sounds like with the plug on and off and the needle fluctuating.

I guess I can't upload to the site. I can assure you it's virus free. Just a vid file.
 
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itwonder

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Wouldn't this be covered by Ford's emissions controls warranty?
 
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