Improperly shimmed Quaife

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masho95

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Just wondering what would the symptoms of an improperly shimmed Quaife would be? I've had a slight tranny rattle ever since I installed mine. It just has the rattle at idle in netrual with the clutch pedal out. When you press the clutch pedal in the ratlle completely goes away. It's definitely not the TOB I've already checked that out. Thanks for any replies.

<small>[ February 10, 2004, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: masho95 ]</small>
 

twr

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Blue-By-U:
How did you rule out the TOB?
Ditto on that. Quaife is not moving in neutral. The only thing spinning in the trans is the input shaft.

<small>[ February 10, 2004, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: twr ]</small>
 

AutoSHO

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I would hazard a guess it is the lightened flywheel causing the problem. My friend's supra makes lots of noise in neutral because the flywheel is so much lighter that the input shaft actually gets sped up and slowed down between each power pulse from the engine. Makes a rattle that goes away when you push the clutch in because you stop putting engine power through the input shaft.

Does the noise go away if you increase the engine rpms?
 

masho95

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I've already ruled out the TOB by lifting the clutch self adjuster mechanism and moving the clutch release arm to the front of the car to completely move the TOB away from the pressure plate. With the TOB completely moved away from the PP the rattling noise was still there. And I doubt it has anything to do with the flywheel because that was in there before the noise started. BUT I did replace the input shaft as before I put the Quaife in because the previous differential was chewing the main diff pin to pieces and throwing chunks of metal about the tranny. So metal chunks wedged in the input shaft pinion gear and broke off multiple teeth on it. So I got a used input shaft and swapped over all my blocking rings, synchros, and gears. So I've talked to Josh T. about this and he suggested a tranny lash problem causing it. Such as a slack between the gearshafts. So the input shaft might be to blame afterall. The shaft I put in seemed to be fine, including the bearings which all spun freely. So might it be the input shaft causing the noise afterall? Thanks for anymore suggestions.

<small>[ February 10, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: masho95 ]</small>
 

twr

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Well that could be if the input shaft wasn't shimmed properly. I don't know if the trick you tried would really back the TOB off far enough.
 

masho95

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Isn't the preload for the input shaft set by the shim above the bearing cup on the top half of the case? If so there is only one size shim for any input shaft or bearing. How do you remedy the problem?
 

Bizzy

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Guys, there is also something called neutral rollover rattle. I'm sure you've all heard about it before.

Back last January when I was up at Josh's having my tranny worked upon by the master himself, I pointed out the noise that I also thought was the TOB. Push the clutch in, noise goes away, let it out when sitting in neutral comes back again.

If you installed a new TOB and if you installed it properly then it should be fine. If you replaced the service shim when you replaced the input shaft (goes between the cup and the tranny case) then the input shaft should be ok. The service shims are all the same size in thickness, granted with a new input shaft especially if you replaced any of the bearings, you should use a new shim as well, but I highly doubt that you have any problem with the input shaft.

Who installed your quaife? What method was used to set the pre-load? Do you notice any drivability problems?

Also, what bearings did you replace? How were the bearings installed on the quaife? And were they put on straight? Were there any problems installing them?

<small>[ February 10, 2004, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Bizzy ]</small>
 

masho95

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Bizzy:
Guys, there is also something called neutral rollover rattle. I'm sure you've all heard about it before.

Back last January when I was up at Josh's having my tranny worked upon by the master himself, I pointed out the noise that I also thought was the TOB. Push the clutch in, noise goes away, let it out when sitting in neutral comes back again.

If you installed a new TOB and if you installed it properly then it should be fine. If you replaced the service shim when you replaced the input shaft (goes between the cup and the tranny case) then the input shaft should be ok. The service shims are all the same size in thickness, granted with a new input shaft especially if you replaced any of the bearings, you should use a new shim as well, but I highly doubt that you have any problem with the input shaft.

Who installed your quaife? What method was used to set the pre-load? Do you notice any drivability problems?

Also, what bearings did you replace? How were the bearings installed on the quaife? And were they put on straight? Were there any problems installing them?
Ok but if it was neutral gear rollover, why would it have started after I swapped the input shaft and installed the Quaife. I've tried 2 different new ceramic TOB's to eliminate that as a possibility. When I changed the input shaft I reused the old shim. Second time I had the tranny out I replaced the shim with a new one. Same noise. I did the actually install of the Quaife, but Mark N. set it up for me (bearings, ring gear, etc.). To set the pre-load I used Mark N.'s diff tool. And from what Mark told me the bearings were put on by freezing the Quaife in a freezer and pushing them on. But the noise is at idle, so the diff shouldn't be spinning, eliminating the Quaife as a possible suspect. No drivability issues at all.
 

Bizzy

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Ok but if it was neutral gear rollover, why would it have started after I swapped the input shaft and installed the Quaife. I've tried 2 different new ceramic TOB's to eliminate that as a possibility.
I'm really not sure unless it has something to do with the gears/synchros/blocking rings being taken apart and then re-assembled. I never had the noise until after I had my other clutch kit installed. Since that time I installed my other tranny with quaife and I still get the noise. To tell the honest truth, I've considered putting a stock Valeo kit back on my car just to see if the noise is clutch related with mine. Never had a single noise until I installed the new 9 puck clutch disk.

If what you're hearing is gear rollover, which I'm inclined to think it is, it will not cause any damage to the tranny or the engine. It's more of an annoyance than anything else. It's a phenomenon that is also very well described in the shop manual, they don't even know why it happens, it just does in some transmissions.

When I changed the input shaft I reused the old shim. Second time I had the tranny out I replaced the shim with a new one. Same noise.
I think having done this you've eliminated the shim being an issue. The only other issue that there could be would be with the bearings. If overly worn they could cause noise, or if you replaced them with new bearings and didn't fully seat them or get them on exactly straight. If you didn't replace them and if they weren't worn then I would not worry about the input shaft.

I did the actually install of the Quaife, but Mark N. set it up for me (bearings, ring gear, etc.). To set the pre-load I used Mark N.'s diff tool. And from what Mark told me the bearings were put on by freezing the Quaife in a freezer and pushing them on.
As long as you measured properly and re-measured with the shim on top of the bearing/under the tool to make sure the shim was the proper size then you should be just fine.

The freeze the quaife/heat the bearings is an old trick and works quite nicely for most all pressed on type bearings. I use the same method on the quaife as well as the input shaft and main shafts. Works like a charm.

But the noise is at idle, so the diff shouldn't be spinning, eliminating the Quaife as a possible suspect. No drivability issues at all.
This is what my car does 99.99% of the time. Start the car, let off the clutch pedal while in neutral. Usually starts out as a light hardly audible rattle. As the tranny gets warmer most of the time it gets louder, only when in neutral with the the clutch pedal up. Press it down, no more rattle. Sometimes I can let the pedal out nice and easy and I can barely hear it. I could take some audio of mine tomorrow at it's loudest if you'd like to hear it.

<small>[ February 11, 2004, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Bizzy ]</small>
 

olympic

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My car has this exact same rattle. It was rebuilt by Josh T with all new bearings, quaife, blocking rings, etc. I agree with the above that it is probably caused by the lighter flywheel(which I have also).
 

Bizzy

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What I find curious is that I only upgraded my clutch disk and a new pressure plate. My flywheel is stock as can be. So it very well could be a flywheel or flywheel/clutch disk issue. Eliminating one thing at a time is the only real way to find out....but who wants to drop the trans that many times. :)
 

masho95

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Bizzy:
What I find curious is that I only upgraded my clutch disk and a new pressure plate. My flywheel is stock as can be. So it very well could be a flywheel or flywheel/clutch disk issue. Eliminating one thing at a time is the only real way to find out....but who wants to drop the trans that many times. :)
Thanks for the reply, and if you could take audio of it, that would be very good. I also have the 9 puck fibertuff clutch in my car with the HD PP from SHONut. It could have started right after that was installed, but I had to drive home from Mark N.'s when he installed the clutch about 300 something miles with broken teeth on the input shaft pinion gear and 5th gearshaft pinion gear. Let me tell you there was ALOT of noise just from that so it definitely could have overshadowed the neutral rollover noise. Once the car got home it sat until I got a replacement input shaft and 5th gear shaft. At the time I replace both and finally put the Quaife in.

As for your question about who wants to pull the tranny out that many times? I do! Seriously I had my transmission out 5-6 times in 2003. Due to clutch work, tranny problems, Quaife install, trying to cure the rollover noise, etc.
It's definitely not fun, ok maybe the 1st and 2nd time it was, but not that many times! :)
One time I had to pull the whole tranny apart because I made a STUPID mistake. When taking the mainshaft apart I had the 1/2 synchro fall apart on me. When I put the synchro back together I didn't make sure the alignment marks lined up. BIG mistake. Put the tranny back in, and it was VERY hard to get 1st to engage. Half the time you would shift to first and it would just pop right out of gear when you let the clutch up. Other times if the car was left in 1st gear when shut off, and then restarted you couldn't pull it out of first gear without letting up on the clutch like halfway or shutting the car off and then starting it in neutral. The only good thing that came out of pulling the tranny JUST to fix the alignment marks on the synchro was that I'll NEVER EVER make that mistake again. Kinda like trying to lower the subframe without removing the two bolts that keep it attached to the tranny mount! (RIIIIPPP). Nice $100 mistake. Again something I'll NEVER EVER make again. (Edit: It wasn't on my car, but my friend's 89. Still cost me $100 though :) and he got a new tranny mount out of it!) Anyways thanks for the input! It's much appreciated!

<small>[ February 12, 2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: masho95 ]</small>
 

masho95

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Bizzy, on a side note... do you notice a tougher engagement from a stop in first gear with the fibertuff disc? Since it's a "puck" type clutch I seem to get a little chatter sometimes trying to start from a stop with it. Other than that it's probably the BEST clutch I've ever seen. It has absolutely no slippage at any RPM's. I think it's going to be perfect for my ZEX kit as soon as Spring rolls around and I can get my buddies SHO out of my garage with it's new engine in it! :)
 

Zap

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Hmm... I don't have a Quaife (yet, at least!) in either of the SHOs, but the '94 has a SHONut HD PP / Fibertuff Disc / Ceramic TOB combo that I recently installed (now has 6k on it, 88k on the car). I still notice a rattle sometimes that I attributed to the TOB breaking in, but after seeing this post, am curious if it could be related to the clutch setup in some other way, as the car didn't have a rattle prior to the installation of the new clutch (old TOB face sheared off, exposing the bearings!). The flywheel is stock as well. I have noticed a chatter on occasion, but otherwise I agree that this is the best clutch I have driven on before. What will make things interesting, is when I finish putting the '95 back together. I will see if that SHONut combo also has the noise as well. Also, there are a few other folks that seem to think the combo has increased vibration in the cabin, for whatever reason. Hopefully my experience with the clutch may help, as I don't have either a lighter flywheel or quaife. I would be interested to hear the recording of the noise, to see if that is what I am hearing too!
 

masho95

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I wonder if somehow the 9-puck fibertuff disc has a looser tolerance around the splines where it seats on the input shaft which causes the rattling noise. But from what everyone has said the noise is just an annoyance and not something that will cause damage. But from my point of view it's not something that should occur from a $175 disc. I'm not sure how much Josh has heard about this rattling noise, but I'll be sure to point it out to him, because as the number of people that are using this disc, so are the number of people that are noticing the noise. Thanks.
 

SHO NUT

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masho95:
I wonder if somehow the 9-puck fibertuff disc has a looser tolerance around the splines where it seats on the input shaft which causes the rattling noise. But from what everyone has said the noise is just an annoyance and not something that will cause damage. But from my point of view it's not something that should occur from a $175 disc. I'm not sure how much Josh has heard about this rattling noise, but I'll be sure to point it out to him, because as the number of people that are using this disc, so are the number of people that are noticing the noise. Thanks.
I'll have my manufacturer look into it. He had the hub inserts specially made for him, and they seem fairly close toleranced from what I've seen, though I have not been comparing different discs on an input shaft for that purpose ...

One thing to consider is that the spline insert (that engages the splines and transmits the torque to the sprung hub and thus the marcel spring and linings themselves) is an all-metal unit on these 9-pucks, which is unique in the SHO clutch world (remember that this is a custom-made disc for the SHO, and not a re-lined Valeo.) Most other discs are based on the Valeo disc, which has a composite metal/plastic/metal spline insert.

Now, recall that the disc is firmly clamped between the pressure plate the flywheel when the clutch is out. Thus I would not be surprised that if the disc were clamped in place, say, a couple thou off centre from the input shaft (which is reasonable, given the slip-fit nature of the hub over the splines, especially if the splines are worn at all), that the all-metal construction of the spline insert may transmit any contact noise of a slightly off-centre spline insert through the sprung hub into the input shaft, into the tranny, into the engine block, through your reinforced (stiff) mounts, through your solid aluminum subframe bushings, and into the cabin. :) If it does not go through the input shaft, then through the disc that is tightly clamped by the pressure plate, to the flywheel, to the engine, and then the HD mounts, solid bushing and again into the cabin ... :) As I browse the sigs, I see aluminum subframe bushings and HD mounts in nearly all of them. Thus a noise that may otherwise be absorbed by a composite plastic/metal spline insert would then trickle into the cabin that is not insulated by rubber bushings :)

It's a theory.

One other theory is that the tranny shaft bearings are shimmed loose from the factory, not to mention that the service shim is even thinner than most factory shims. Loose bearings mean that the shafts can move around more than they do, leading to more gear rattle.

Maybe select-fitting the shaft bearing shims like the diff shim is an answer. I don't know.

If someone wants to pull out their 9-puck and try a Valeo based disc with a composite spline insert to see if it goes away, I can supply one.

However, in the end, I'd rather have a rattling, but strong spline insert in my blower car. I've never liked the idea that plastic was (I run the 9-puck in there now) used to transmit the torque I make.

BTW, I don't consider $175 to be particuarly expensive for a custom-made disc wink
 

drivinhard

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IMHO there is enough drivetrain vibration and slack tolerance between the TOB hub and quill sleeve to still "rattle" even if the TOB isn't in contact with the PP fingers (ie removing the cable and pulling the TOB as far back on the sleeve as possible). The "rattle" I've noticed for years on various cars, all types of clutches, etc. It's nice to use a new sleeve if possible (if you can take the old one off without beating up the quill) but its not helping the potential of the noise showing up to re-use a sleeve with a new TOB. Even with a new one it's a crapshoot. My wife's 91 has done it since day 1 (3.5 yrs ago when I put the clutch in). My 89 has never made a sound, and has used the same TOB for the last 3 yrs (with 7 different clutches). The 92 has never made a sound, with 2 different trannies and 2 clutches. Basically, IMHO the lowest common denominator with the rattle is the TOB/sleeve. Nothing mechanically wrong, just some do, and some don't. Most other cars I've worked on (cable and hydraulic TOB) typically have a better fitting and smoother acting TOB/quill.
 

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