Good AutoX Pic

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K-Dawg

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What kind of tires are you running? They are rolling over like crazy. Get some good rubber on that thing and watch your times plummet!
 

Techpriest

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I am running Falken Azenis.

As far as I know the front end has not been touched since it was built 18 years and 136k miles ago. I rebuilt the rear last winter. I used KYB struts and MOOG coils.

When I increase the pressure I reduce the roll on the tires, but the car gets flaky. I think the worn-out front end is letting to much weight shift too fast so at any given time I have one tire with great traction, and one tire with none, then they trade places.

With less air the car feels more stable. I figured having 4 tires slipping was better than some slipping and some not. I have found 40psi works best.

My plan is to put Koni Adjustables struts on the front, and adjustable coil-overs all around. I am hoping then to run a higher pressure and still keep the car stable. Now I just need to find a way to fund those upgrades...
 

NoSHOAllGo

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Cool pic and nice sig. :thumb: And with those suspension mods your considering installing, your SHO will handle like no other.
 
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SHO Continental

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A set of 17s would handle drastically better even on stock suspension. A good set of struts and springs would help of course. But I'm no autoXer, just an occasional spirited driver. :biggrin:
 

Techpriest

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A set of 17s would handle drastically better even on stock suspension.

I have heard that before but can't make sense of it. How would heavier wheels, more stress on the hubs and raising my center of gravity make the car handle better?

What I think started this theory is that people with 15" rims and standard tires trades them in on 17" rims and low profile sport tires. Wow, that does handle so much better! Of course it will, but I don't think the size of the rim had anything to do with it.

My regular (non-race) tires are all-weathers with a wide sidewall and 650 treadwear. If I bought those same tires in 17" and put them on 17" rims does anyone really think it would improve the cars handling?

I want larger rims to help fill the wheel well, get my speedo closer to correct, improve gas mileage and keep me from hitting the nose on inclines. I am hoping it will not affect my handling to the negative, but really can't see how it would affect it in the positive.
 

Jarrod

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The idea is to keep the the same overall diameter. I larger wheel will require a lesser sidewall ratio. The lower profile tires should decrease sidewall flex for improved handling. As far as raising the center of gravity, I don't see how you would do that as long as your tire had the same overall diameter. There are some nice, lightweight 17" wheels available that shouldn't affect acceleration, mileage, or stopping ability.

One quick question, are you still running the stock brakes on that '89?
 

Techpriest

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I would like to keep overall diameter for the reasons I mentioned, but as for handling I still don't see what outside diameter has to do with it.

My car sits lower with my current setup of race tires and 15" rims. By telling me to get 17" rims and the same tires I am being told to raise my center of gravity.

Yes, still have stock brakes. At Autocross events I can lock the brakes up just at about any time I want. Larger or more powerful brakes will simply let me lock them up more, which will not actually improve my braking.

Yes, I would like cool wheels, brakes and all those things but I am looking at actual performance increases to dollars spent.
 

shomesomesho

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more rubber, more HP.....
Wider wheels with corresponding wider tires will improve handling by giving you more traction. The same (or smaller) overall diameter and the same (or less) weight would be ideal.

That being said, take a look at these babies. :) Even though they are 17's, the overall diameter rim+tire is less than stock.
 
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thebigjimsho

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A set of 16x7.5 wheels with 225/50 16 BF Goodrich R1s could not be stopped! Except with my TCE SHOstoppers...

Definitely FIRST thing to do is wider wheels, then wider tires.
 

Jarrod

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I would like to keep overall diameter for the reasons I mentioned, but as for handling I still don't see what outside diameter has to do with it.

My car sits lower with my current setup of race tires and 15" rims. By telling me to get 17" rims and the same tires I am being told to raise my center of gravity.

Yes, still have stock brakes. At Autocross events I can lock the brakes up just at about any time I want. Larger or more powerful brakes will simply let me lock them up more, which will not actually improve my braking.

Yes, I would like cool wheels, brakes and all those things but I am looking at actual performance increases to dollars spent.

Locking up your brakes isn't a sure sign of ultimate stopping power. Your car will stop faster with better brakes that decelerate the car at a higher rate then slamming on your brakes and letting the car skid to a hault. Larger brakes help increase your rate of deceleration by applying more force to the rotor and slowing it down rather than locking up and allowing the car to skid. Of course, you may not get up to speeds where a larger/more powerful brake combination would be much more useful.

Increasing the overall diameter of your setup will in no way whatsoever improve handling.

What size tires are you running right now on your wheels? Like the other 2 said, a wider, stickier footprint is what will improve handling. The only real reason to go with a lower profile tire (and, a corresponding larger wheel to keep the overall diameter the same) is to eliminate sidewall flex and the tire rolling over, which it is doing in the picture you posted. That's allowing weight to continue transferring in its original direction rather than changing direction with the wheel.
 
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chknhwk

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I would like to keep overall diameter for the reasons I mentioned, but as for handling I still don't see what outside diameter has to do with it.

My car sits lower with my current setup of race tires and 15" rims. By telling me to get 17" rims and the same tires I am being told to raise my center of gravity.

Yes, still have stock brakes. At Autocross events I can lock the brakes up just at about any time I want. Larger or more powerful brakes will simply let me lock them up more, which will not actually improve my braking.

Yes, I would like cool wheels, brakes and all those things but I am looking at actual performance increases to dollars spent.

You can increase your wheel size without affecting your center of gravity by keeping the overall tire height the same. How to determine overall tire height. If your ride height is lower with 15" wheels vs. 17" then you're either running the wrong sizes or not enough air pressure in your tires. :rofl:
What they are talking about is reducing sidewall flex by using larger wheels with the same overall height. This reduces the height on the sidewall. That prevents the sidewalls from rolling over as much because the sidewalls are stiffer. It allows the driver greater confidence in the vehicle because the contact patch does not change as much and there is no (well, much less) sideways motion from the tire waggling on the wheel. Also moving up in size creates a 'flatter' contact patch which helps improve braking and acceleration as on smaller wheels the tires are rounded more for the same overall height.
You can actually increase your wheel size while maintaining the same overall weight; however your weight will be in different areas which may affect acceleration and car feel, but I seriously doubt you'd notice it.
Whoever is giving you this information is not well-informed themselves.
I suggest reading a lot more on the subject if you want to become a better driver. A good place to start is The Physics of Racing Series, google it.
EDIT: By the way, that's a pretty sweet looking car. :)
 
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chknhwk

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More info:
Hope this works...
Interesting. We can't attach images anymore? I guess somebody was using too much bandwidth... :snicker: Anyway, I have a picture of the page for the book I posted above. Basically what it says is:
Advanced Vehicle Technology said:
Lowering the aspect ratio has the following effects:
  1. The tyre sidewall height is reduced which increases the vertical and lateral stiffness of the tyre.
  2. A shorter and wider contact patch is established. The overall effect is to raise the load carrying capacity of the tyre.
  3. The wider contact patch enables larger cornering forces to be generated so that vehicles are able to travel faster on bends.
  4. etc
 

Shoaz

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What they are talking about is reducing sidewall flex by using larger wheels with the same overall height. This reduces the height on the sidewall. That prevents the sidewalls from rolling over as much because the sidewalls are stiffer. It allows the driver greater confidence in the vehicle because the contact patch does not change as much and there is no (well, much less) sideways motion from the tire waggling on the wheel. Also moving up in size creates a 'flatter' contact patch which helps improve braking and acceleration as on smaller wheels the tires are rounded more for the same overall height.

I don't think that this is universally accepted as being true, i.e., that shorter sidewalls improve handling, despite the book citation. Carroll Smith's books disagree, and I've seen a lot of opinion from reputable sources that the opposite is actually true. I suppose it's no mistake that some of the top racing series (e.g., CART, Formula 1, NASCAR, etc., etc) tend to only use wheels just big enough to clear the brakes and wind up with high sidewalls. FWIW, from a performance perspective as far as I can tell that's the main reason to use a bigger wheel: to clear bigger brakes. If you're not going to make use of the additional brake clearance, the larger diameter rim may actually wind up hurting you more than it helps, especially on a car with McPherson struts that doesn't have a favorable camber response (e.g., a SHO).

Sidewall compliance can work to your benefit, e.g., by helping to keep the tire on the ground across the section width...this helps keep the widest contact patch which has the benefits listed in the book citation.

Consider also that the some of the stiffest sidewalls out there are on run-flat tires, and they're not known to be that great for handling. People take those off for track days/autox and put on something with more compliance. I don't think the "stiff sidewalls are better" argument is really true.

Whoever is giving you this information is not well-informed themselves.
I suggest reading a lot more on the subject if you want to become a better driver. A good place to start is The Physics of Racing Series, google it.
EDIT: By the way, that's a pretty sweet looking car. :)

The Physics of Racing series is excellent. There are a number of other good reading references, too, like Bondurant's book or other driving books (I have a pretty good library of driving/race engineering texts...they're definitely worth the investment if you're reasonably serious and especially if you do your own wrenching).
 

zak

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Some folks feel a taller sidewall helps the tread sit flatter on the road, less wheelspin on exit . . . more importantly:

205/50/15 is going to have a dangerously low load rating for driving down the street, much less autocrossing where you've got 80% of the weight of the car bearing down on the outside front.

I ran 205-60-16s BFG R1s on slicers back in the day, and overheating the fronts half way through the course was common . . . . like my 245/45 RA1s on 16 x 8 much better - zak
 
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Shoaz

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F1 went to a much larger sidewall in part to slow the cars down. They weren't always that big.

Can you find a pic of an F1 car (any era) that raced with what could be called "low-profile" tires? Or any open-wheeled series for that matter?

Anyway, point being just that lots of race cars do very, very well without low-profile tires. AFAICT the examples with low-profile tires (e.g., some LMP cars, xTCC cars) fill the wheels with monstrous brakes because the rules allow it. I've not noticed a case in professional racing where a team didn't use the minimum sized wheel to cover the maximum sized brake. This supports the assertions I've seen by many race engineers that the wheel size is really dictated by the brakes, not handling. Low moment of inertia also tends to favor smaller wheels, and I'm sure that's a big consideration as well.

As usual, YMMV, etc., etc.
 
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