Eco_Boost Fuel Dilution Problems

[BaySHO Performance]

This from the NorCal Shelby list. Gen 4 SHO owners, heads up. John Miller (runs the BaySHO club email list server) says that this is supposedly also a big issue with various BMW and Audi direct-injection engines and there's been a lot of discussion about it in various places.

Fuel Dilution % is the amount of raw, unburned fuel that ends up in the crankcase. It lowers an oil's viscosity and flash point - creating friction-related wear almost immediately by reducing film strength.

Tom Georgalos is well known here in Northern California. He runs the Green Flag Driving Association that hosts Open Tracking events at the local tracks, runs a transmission repair and auto shop in Salinas, is an Amsoil direct jobber and is President of the Salinas Valley Chamber of Commerce for Automobile Repairing Service.

Regards

Nick

-------- Original Message --------
From: Tom Georgalos
Subject: [Nor Cal SAAC] Eco_Boost / Problems
To: [email protected]

It seems there are many Ford Eco-Boost vehicles showing excessive fuel dilution and cylinder wash down. How do I know? We were tipped off at SEMA with Amsoil Tech Dept, who is conducting a sideline study of oil analysis samples from these trucks.

I was also tipped off by a friend with a brand new Eco-Boost F150. We did oil analysis on 2 oil samples; 14,500 miles and 4.500 miles. The truck now has a bit over 19,000 miles on it. Both samples showed abnormal to severe fuel dilution. Both oil samples were Amsoil Synthetic oil and showed a start in viscosity change, yet engine wear was kept to a minimum. I have also compared our samples to some other samples posted on Internet and I see for example extreme engine wear at just 5,000 with Mobil 1 synthetic oil with equal amount of fuel dilution.

Ford knows about this and they really aren't doing anything about it as yet. In some places they are combating this with a change in oil change interval from 7,500 miles to 3,000 miles. All the trucks involved seem and feel great to drive. It is like a silent killer, sort of like running around with high blood pressure. I know have 2 more customers that are coming in, that we are going to sample and help them protect their warranty's and document.

I am looking for anybody else that we may be able to tip off or alert. I have oil sample kits ready to go, if anybody is interested and the cost is nominal per kit. Oil analysis documents what is happening inside these motors and any other motors. These kits can be drop shipped and we would love to add to our arsenal of accumulated reports in the grand scheme of things. Possibly somebody else has more information and had trouble with Ford, please side line me and tell me. Thanks in advance. Tom Georgalos

 

[SHO U UP]

This from the NorCal Shelby list. Gen 4 SHO owners, heads up. John Miller (runs the BaySHO club email list server) says that this is supposedly also a big issue with various BMW and Audi direct-injection engines and there's been a lot of discussion about it in various places.

Fuel Dilution % is the amount of raw, unburned fuel that ends up in the crankcase. It lowers an oil's viscosity and flash point - creating friction-related wear almost immediately by reducing film strength.

Tom Georgalos is well known here in Northern California. He runs the Green Flag Driving Association that hosts Open Tracking events at the local tracks, runs a transmission repair and auto shop in Salinas, is an Amsoil direct jobber and is President of the Salinas Valley Chamber of Commerce for Automobile Repairing Service.

Regards

Nick

-------- Original Message --------
From: Tom Georgalos
Subject: [Nor Cal SAAC] Eco_Boost / Problems
To: [email protected]

It seems there are many Ford Eco-Boost vehicles showing excessive fuel dilution and cylinder wash down. How do I know? We were tipped off at SEMA with Amsoil Tech Dept, who is conducting a sideline study of oil analysis samples from these trucks.

I was also tipped off by a friend with a brand new Eco-Boost F150. We did oil analysis on 2 oil samples; 14,500 miles and 4.500 miles. The truck now has a bit over 19,000 miles on it. Both samples showed abnormal to severe fuel dilution. Both oil samples were Amsoil Synthetic oil and showed a start in viscosity change, yet engine wear was kept to a minimum. I have also compared our samples to some other samples posted on Internet and I see for example extreme engine wear at just 5,000 with Mobil 1 synthetic oil with equal amount of fuel dilution.

Ford knows about this and they really aren't doing anything about it as yet. In some places they are combating this with a change in oil change interval from 7,500 miles to 3,000 miles. All the trucks involved seem and feel great to drive. It is like a silent killer, sort of like running around with high blood pressure. I know have 2 more customers that are coming in, that we are going to sample and help them protect their warranty's and document.

I am looking for anybody else that we may be able to tip off or alert. I have oil sample kits ready to go, if anybody is interested and the cost is nominal per kit. Oil analysis documents what is happening inside these motors and any other motors. These kits can be drop shipped and we would love to add to our arsenal of accumulated reports in the grand scheme of things. Possibly somebody else has more information and had trouble with Ford, please side line me and tell me. Thanks in advance. Tom Georgalos

Send me a PM with some info. I'm in NorCal now myself. I just changed my oil the other day and thought I could smell a strong odor of fuel in it. When I got the car I dropped the oil percentage gauge to 60% and just increased it to 70% as I don't put that many miles on it anymore. I already didn't feel comfortable waiting on the 100% or 7,500-10,000 miles mark to drop down in a year and keep the same oil in it for that long. I'm interested in the testing.

 

[MNRubyRed2013]

This is interesting. I had an oil analysis done by Blackstone Labs on my 2010 and the comments on the report stated there was no fuel present in the sample. There was 5,660 miles on the oil.

 

[kevinspann]

Friends Mazdaspeed6 also seems to dilute the oil with fuel. He hasn't had a sample sent off, but now I might get him to to see. It's similar, direct injection and turbocharged.

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

I have run up to 8K on my 5-20 Mobil 1 and I have never smelled gas. Also, if this was a problem, wouldn't Ford have suggested that all 2010 EB Vehicles switch to 5-30, like the 2011 cars & all pickups??????

And why is this a problem with DI engines??? The DI fuel injection pressure is much higher, but the amount of fuel sprayed is supposedly less over the entire RPM range, which is why they have gone to DI engines. It could be due to Turbo Boost Pressure, but then it would be all Turbo engines. Only other possibility would be piston and ring design, as that's where the fuel is likely to enter the oil.

Please explain how else this could happen and be unique to DI Turbo engines....

I can't believe that this is a serious issue covering many vehicles and this is the first time we have heard of this on a EB forum.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

I have run up to 8K on my 5-20 Mobil 1 and I have never smelled gas. Also, if this was a problem, wouldn't Ford have suggested that all 2010 EB Vehicles switch to 5-30, like the 2011 cars & all pickups??????

And why is this a problem with DI engines??? The DI fuel injection pressure is much higher, but the amount of fuel sprayed is supposedly less over the entire RPM range, which is why they have gone to DI engines. It could be due to Turbo Boost Pressure, but then it would be all Turbo engines. Only other possibility would be piston and ring design, as that's where the fuel is likely to enter the oil.

Please explain how else this could happen and be unique to DI Turbo engines....

I can't believe that this is a serious issue covering many vehicles and this is the first time we have heard of this on a EB forum.

Just because you have never smelled gas doesn't mean it's not an issue. How many time have you had your oil analyzed?

Just because you can't believe it doesn't mean it's not happening, and as you seem to be a respected long time member of the different forums, I'd say you are doing a disservice to everyone by blowing this off. In case you didn't know, Ford isn't always upfront acknowledging issues especially when they've got as much as they do riding on the Ecoboost platform in general.

As far as I'm concerned, a twenty five dollar oil analysis is CHEAP INSURANCE and as much we've spent on our cars, seems like a no brainer. Especially when we have owners spending 3x that on a thermostat.

I already ordered my kit and I will report back on the facts when I do my first oil change.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free-test-kits.php

Peace

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

FoMoCoSHO,

You may be right. I would just like an explanation on why DI TURBO engines are different and are possibly having this issue?

I specifically asked dealer and tuners etc. on whether I should switch to 5w-30, which it seems to me would handle dilution better than 5w-20. I was told absolutely not...

I do agree that an oil analysis is likely cheap insurance.

I saw all the hype on BG intake valve issues and their push to get us to buy their expensive products. I have a scope, and my intake valves etc. were extremely clean, and certainly not in need of an expensive cleaning. I have used the 3M kit once, just to make sure. That's why I said what I did about questioning the seriousness of this.

I think scaring us, without personal proof, and logical reasons why it is happening, is just as big as any disservice you are accusing me of having created. Ford now has around 1/2 million of these EB engines in the public's hands. Just wondering why we haven't heard about this before now.

I would assume that since this may not immediately happen, that you will do this every time you change your oil, just to be safe.

I think you over-reacted to my post. I still haven't seen any posts on why and how frequent this may be happening.

 

[Ishodu]

Bob the reason maybe that the fuel has less time to atomize before the spark plug goes off there for some maybe be getting on the cylinder walls and passing the rings. Now it might not happen often it maybe under certain conditions.

 

[FoMoCoSHO]

FoMoCoSHO,

You may be right. I would just like an explanation on why DI TURBO engines are different and are possibly having this issue?

I specifically asked dealer and tuners etc. on whether I should switch to 5w-30, which it seems to me would handle dilution better than 5w-20. I was told absolutely not...

I do agree that an oil analysis is likely cheap insurance.

I saw all the hype on BG intake valve issues and their push to get us to buy their expensive products. I have a scope, and my intake valves etc. were extremely clean, and certainly not in need of an expensive cleaning. I have used the 3M kit once, just to make sure. That's why I said what I did about questioning the seriousness of this.

I think scaring us, without personal proof, and logical reasons why it is happening, is just as big as any disservice you are accusing me of having created. Ford now has around 1/2 million of these EB engines in the public's hands. Just wondering why we haven't heard about this before now.

I would assume that since this may not immediately happen, that you will do this every time you change your oil, just to be safe.

I think you over-reacted to my post. I still haven't seen any posts on why and how frequent this may be happening.

My apologies if I overeacted....but I can assure you that Ford is not always upfront with issues like this. The 1.6 ecoboost recall is a great example. But I'm sure the PCM flash will fix it. (sarcasm at Ford, not you!)

Personally I wouldn't run anything but 0-30. Oil dilution issue aside, there's some good info over on BiTOG under the ridiculously long motor oil 101 section that shows 30 protects better than 20 when the oil is to operating temp. And 0 weight at startup flows the fastest, which is where the majority of our wear occurs. Plus it seems weird to me that us 2013 guys have a 5-30 cap and nothing changed in the motors that I know of.

Will I do it for the entire life of the car? No But I probably will the next 3 or 4 and then probably once a year after. That will put me at 18k and give me some peace of mind as the issue probably would have surfaced by then. Once a year after just because the analysis are helpful at finding issues before you know there is one.

This is not about scaring anyone. It just seems to me that we have a much smaller community (vs duratec 4 bangers for example, there's gazillions) and of that community, just how many are gear heads and prone to notice or look for these kinds of issues? I'd rather catch it early that have to deal with situations like DSM's with premature broken timing belts (lived it), walking crankshafts, etc. This is especially important with the modded cars....I would hate for someone to be denied warranty service because of a "tune" when the problem was actually caused by a factory defect causing oil to turn to pisswater.

Once again, sorry if I came off ******. No disrespect intended...I seek out and read all of your posts, as you seem very knowledgeable and have forged new territory for our ecoboost platform.

In fact, some of your posts helped with my buying decision, so a big ol :thankyou:to you!

Peace!

 

[SHOZ123]

The crankcase blow by is recycled back into the crankcase on the EcoBoost motors, instead of being sucked into the intake and burnt.

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

That's true. I have catch cans on both my G8's but the EB engine sends most oil blow by into rear valve cover where it overflows back into the engine. I have the front vent line that goes to front turbo intake, plugged, with a vent on the valve cover.

My intake at 30+K was oil free. I can't believe how much blow by oil I accumulate in my G8 catch cans. Seems like every few months and maybe 4K mi, I have an ounce or more.

As for 1.6 turbo, my Ford friend in Naples just got a new Escape with that engine, that had been hail damaged, so went to former Ford employees. He won't be back in Naples till mid-Jan, but likely will have recall done then, as car has been sitting for last month in Naples garage. Will stay on top of that one to see if Ford is correct.

I am well aware of Ford's attitude, as well as GM's on lots of things. Have owned over 50 new vehicles, and 90% were either GM or Ford. However, they have been stiffed by lots of people, so their paranoia is not unfounded...

I agree that "0" weight oil would be best for start up. The reason that Ford went with 20 weight from what I was told, was likely because it uses less energy and therefore provides for better fuel mileage. Now it may only be .05 or .1 mph gain, but on lots of vehicles, every little bit helps.

I think to see what has happened in my engine, I will do the oil test with a sample from the next change, which I project in Feb-March. Currently on a 4K trip. I have had oil from boat engines tested, but that's for metal..... And for some stupid reason I have to run straight 30 wt. and NON-Synthetic in my 502 with a custom roller cam and Crane rollers. Guess the rollers slide if synthetic oil is used...

 

[itguy08]

Much like the BG Intake BS, you have to look at the source. I'd trust Ford on this one over a company that sells oil (and has an interest in selling you more of their overpriced oil) and some amateurs on the Internet (yes, I go to BITOG as well).

I'm sure Ford has this figured out this fuel diliution and accounted for it in the engine's build. The source even says viscosity was changed but no additional wear. So perhaps it's much ado about nothing, like most of the posts at BITOG.

I'd say just follow Ford's recommendations and you'll be rewarded with 150-200k at least...

 

[SHOZ123]

Much like the BG Intake BS, you have to look at the source. I'd trust Ford on this one over a company that sells oil (and has an interest in selling you more of their overpriced oil) and some amateurs on the Internet (yes, I go to BITOG as well).

I'm sure Ford has this figured out this fuel diliution and accounted for it in the engine's build. The source even says viscosity was changed but no additional wear. So perhaps it's much ado about nothing, like most of the posts at BITOG.

I'd say just follow Ford's recommendations and you'll be rewarded with 150-200k at least...

Oh yea of great faith. Obviously never dealt with some of Fords orphan products.

 

[itguy08]

Sure - have had plenty of Fords:

1986 Mustang with the 2.3
1987 ****** 1.9
1997 Mustang Cobra
2000 Explorer with the 4.0 SOHC
2003 Escape 3.0

All have been maintained by the book and other than the Explorer (I think I got the 8AM Monday or 4:45PM Friday build) have lasted fine.

And the 3.5 EB is not exactly a unique engine - it's in Plenty of Fords (SHO, Flex, F150, MKS, MKT). And don't forget the F150 is Ford's #1 seller and the EB 3.5 is the #1 engine in the F150 now.

I'll trust Ford over amateurs and oil salesmen.

 

[SHOZ123]

I was a long time Ford owner ever since I could drive. Owning the V8 SHO and the BS Ford put out about the cams changed that.

 

[EcoBrick Bob]

FYI

I have had an oil breather on the front valve cover, and with it the plugged end on the turbo intake pipe for about 10,000 mi. It is amazing how dirty the breather is starting to look. Was red mesh originally, and now shows lots of oil residue. Don't see how this and the Ford designed catch can can cause front or rear oil seal problems but so far I have no outward leaks anywhere. Now I need to check my intake piping in front of the TB for oil residue. Also plan to have oil analyzed. Just got back from a 10 day 4K trip. Will wait till I have another 1K on oil and see if it has fuel in it, or anything else. Am running a magnetic oil pan plug, and at first change after install, I did notice some shavings had collected on it.

 

[Unknown_Driver]

just saw this post... amsoil huh... hmm maybe they heard we all like royal purple or whatever ford has to offer...

anyways i will never believe anything when a post starts with any mentions of amsoil

it got so bad royal purple had to post something official on facebook about it

"A repost from earlier regarding a facebooker who was bashing on Royal Purple and stating Amsoil was better. We wanted you to still have access to the information.

Let’s start with any synthetic motor oil that you choose will benefit you vehicle better than conventional motor oil whether you choose Royal Purple, Mobil 1, or Amsoil, but Royal Purple can offer you something a little more.

Amsoil doesn’t have any 3rd party independent studies done that show their product out performs ours and the ones they do claim are conducted by dealers or their own labs. Amsoil’s test are conducted under their supervision with their people running the test, but the lab sounds like an independent lab in the way it is presented. A key example of this is the 4 ball wear test.

The ASTM D4172 Test (4 ball wear test) is NOT an accepted engine oil test nor indicative of actual field wear performance for engine oils. Per the ASTM 'Significance of Use description", the ASTM declares that there is no correlation between oils of different formulas or to actual field wear data. This test was designed to quickly compare 'batch to batch' quality of the exact same formula of oil during production.

Amsoil also has a bad habit of claiming ASTM, API acceptance and/or test protocol and then modifying the test in-house. The ASTM D4172 should run at 1200 rpm and 75 C. Amsoil ran it at 1800 rpm and 150 C. At that point, it becomes an 'Amsoil' in-house test, not an ASTM repeatable test. Why did they modify the test? To make their oils 'look' better? Amsoil has taken this test and made it a big selling point and consumers have no idea what the test was intended for. Amsoil also has a bad habit of claiming ASTM or API acceptance or test protocol and then modifying the test in-house. They also do not run the ASTM Timken OK Load test - the RP oils would score first in this test having 300-400% better performance than the others.

Amsoil's typical miss-interpretation of results can even be found in their own reports. They test regarding film strength si not about film strength but is about wear.

They have even shown where Royal Purple has the highest rating for wear protection in the FZG test and highest rating for oxidation protection, but yet they score Royal Purple the worst in a 'wear test'. Why, How? Amsoil will not report on Royal Purple’s Oxidation resistance in a TFOUT test. WHY, because Royal Purple will actual tests out to 1300 minutes and is 2 ½ times better than theirs! They arbitrarily stopped the test at 500 minutes. We also had some of the best results in the cleanliness results for keeping your engine free of deposits and corrosion and zero foaming yet they claim we failed a rust protection test? Confusing - hard to judge as they do not share the actual coupon of the metal - just report a failure and they also will not state how many coupons they ran with each oil - or did they run the test until they got a 'failing' one and reported it?

Why does Amsoil have it out for Royal Purple? How Could someone mess up these results? EASY, at the end of all of the studies you will usually one or both of the following names

Dave Leitten- AMSOIL Laboratory Director and Kevin Dinwiddie - AMSOIL Drivetrain Specialist

They work for Amsoil and every test run and distributed that Amsoil was ranked number 1 is done internally. It does appear there was no favoritism to their company? Not really

Just thought we would clear some of the air.

We still refer back that Amsoil makes a great product, but Royal Purple can and does things better and different than they do.

Have a nice day."

 

[racerx78]

I know personally prefer Amsoil or Redline over RP, but that is based on personal experience. When i tried RP in one of my newer vehicles, as soon as i had the RP in it there was more vibration from the motor. Felt like it was running rougher. I didn't keep it in for to long. I went back to M1(that was my other favorite at the time) and the car ran so much better. I never went back to RP.

In my '10 SHO i ran Amsoil 5w-30, and their Tranny, diff & Gear oil. In my '13 I'm currently running PP during my extended break in period. This spring i'll be either going back to Amsoil or running Redline.

As far as fuel dilution it looks to be a common issue with DI vehicles. My MS3 had the same issue. What that car i ran Shell Rotella 5w-40 because of its resistance to fuel dilution.

 

[SHO U UP]

I won't put Royal Purple in ANYTHING else I own. Tried it in 3 of my 5 vehicles, every damn one leaked. Switched back to Mobil 1, not an issue with any of them.

 

[rubydist]

I am willing to wager that part of the fuel dilution issue on the ECO Boost engine is Ford's tendency to run things way rich under WOT. (In which a pcm flash just might fix it, if you have the right guy modify the code.)