Coolant leak and oil leak

[92ShoOff]

Hey again everyone. I thought I was on a roll here because it had been several weeks since I've had any issues with the SHO..... that didn't last long. I have coolant leaking from what oddly looks to be the front main seal somehow. I can't tell if it's leaking maybe from the bottom of the water pump and dripping down to the crank seal because that timing cover is in the way. The water pump itself appears to be dry on the outside (from what I can see), but the power steering pump and everything on that back side of the engine compartment is pretty much soiled..... yet my power steering fluid level has stayed at the exact line I filled it to like 4 months ago. So it's not the PS fluid leaking out around the PS pump.

I've attached a picture below of the leak, and circled in red right where it's coming from. I'll wipe it all off and in a matter of seconds drops start tearing back out. Is it at all possible for coolant to somehow leak out the front main seal??????? It's not even mixed with oil or anything... it's just straight bright orange like it's supposed to be.

No the other thing I noticed was that the rear head seems to have a small leak too. I'm pretty sure it's oil, but I'm not 100% sure because I couldn't reach my hand that far up there to get my fingers on it and smell what it was. But it seems to be leaking between the head and the rear exhaust manifold. And if you notice, everything below the head in that picture is wet. I didn't think of looking at the front side of that head, but maybe THAT's the source of my leak and it's possibly dripping down to the oil pan from there, and when I'm in motion it's splattering back everywhere behind it. Maybe it's not the water pump at all. Maybe that's also why I'm failing my emissions inspection.... that coolant might be getting into my exhaust. I know the inside of my tail-pipes are covered in sut. I was under the impression that I had bad valve stem seals because how it also smokes when I start up. Maybe it's just the head gasket, and if I'm lucky, not the head itself.

One last thing... now that I remember, my dad was trying to "flush" my cooling system one day with the water hose while the engine was running. I was very worried about that because hot aluminum engine + 75 degree F water in the cooling system = bad idea. I'm just hoping I don't have a cracked head from that. So I'll be taking it to have it magnafluxed once I attempt to change these head gaskets here when I figure out that the water pump isn't the problem. Sorry for the long post here... just trying to make sense!

Thanks!,
Andrew

 

[HopefulSHO]

The coolant sounds like a waterpump problem of sorts.

Perhaps the oily head is from a valve cover gasket?

 

[sdpatt]

That coolant drip from the bottom of the lower timing belt cover is indicative of a water pump shaft seal or water pump to block O-ring leak. With the serpentine belt loosened and the engine OFF, grab the water pump pulley by hand and firmly rock it to check for play in the bearings. You can also swipe a finger under the pump's body to check for leaks from the seep holes.

The oil on the power steering pump and the passenger side rear corner of the aft head is usually due to a leaking exhaust camshaft seal. Without detailed information or my own eyes, I cannot determine if it is the cam seal, valve cover seal or even a high pressure power steering hose leak.

The water pump and camshaft seals are all part of a front end service that is usually to access and replace the timing belt. The link below covers many of the parts that are normally serviced during the front end and top end (valve gap) services. These leaks you are seeing are not a sign of terminal engine disease, but just a wake up call that your engine needs some of the required maintanance specified in the owner's manual.

http://www.shoforum.com/showpost.php?p=124606&postcount=5

 

[92ShoOff]

Hey guys thanks a bunch for the help. Yeah I'm more leaning towards a cracked head or bad head gasket. The cars has fresh valve cover gaskets.... they were put on this past winter, maybe no more than 10k miles ago. That said, I'm not so sure it's those gaskets. Now when I replaced my CID (camshaft position) sensor, there was a little oil collected when I removed the old sensor. I wiped it down in hopes that that tiny leak was developed over a long period of time. So it's possible that it's a cam seal, but would it break the seal between the sensor and the housing like that and leak out? Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I recalled some sort of gasket on the CID sensor... but it's been some time.

I think what I'm going to do, just to be safe: pull the heads, have them magnafluxed, replace the head gaskets, replace the valve stem seals (might as well while I'm at it), and replace the 3 cam seals. If that doesn't fix the problem then I'll tackle the water pump and seals next. But I'm gonna paint my intake while it's off, so I'll be needing even more d*mn gaskets. I think I'm going to do a red and aluminum combo on the valve covers and intake... maybe add a little black in there. :****:

But back to the subject... when I walked to my car for my lunch break I noticed a nice little puddle of coolant that was saturated in the asphalt. The puddle was pretty far back along the passenger's side of the engine compartment.... not directly below the water pump... but more so below the PS pump. I think that rear head is just leaking straight coolant either from the gasket of from a crack. What do you guys think about that one???

 

[projectSHO89]

I think you should listen to Scott.

Both of his recommendations carry a very high probability of being correct while yours are most likely not what is needed to correct your two leaks.

Steve

 

[sdpatt]

Thanks Steve. We try.

 

[shojuan]

What do you guys think about that one???

There are typical leak areas that pop up time and time again on SHOs with high mileage. Certain parts NEED replacing after many miles and years of service and said parts WILL leak.

The principle of parsimony, Okham's Razor: The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

In this case it would be replace water pump. Replace cam seals on that side while you're in there.

You've probably got other rubber leaking too. Have you replaced your upper and lower heater hoses yet?

 

[92ShoOff]

Well the only reason I put the idea of the water pump behind me was because I had taken a look at the underside of the pump with an inspection mirror and it seems to be completely dry. Now maybe that timing cover is preventing me from seeing a leak that's actually behind the timing cover itself... I dunno if that's a possibility.

But it just really seems that the coolant leak is coming from somewhere in the area of the CID sensor and leaking down onto the water pump. It's just too difficult to get a good look in that area without removing the two lines from the water pump fluid reservoir..... which I will be doing this weekend. it could possibly be two problems-- the water pump is leaking AND I may have a cracked head. But if the water pump IS leaking then I hardly believe that that's where all this fluid is coming from, because I keep finding puddles collected further back towards the engine compartment when I go to lunch after I've made the drive to work. The puddles are always further back that where the water pump is.

Then again, no I have not changed changed my upper and lower heater hoses either. They LOOK fine, but we all know looks can be quite deceiving. But I'm still pressed on thinking that there is head damage or something to that effect from when my dad was flushing the engine with cool water from the water hose while the engine was hot. I mean, the heads ARE aluminum and all... so that's why I keep thinking that. I'll just have to crawl underneath the car tomorrow morning and inspect the underside of the water pump better, as well as the area where that rear head meets the block. But doesn't this sound more like a head leak than anything to you guys???????

Thanks again!

 

[shojuan]

But doesn't this sound more like a head leak than anything to you guys???????

No it doesn't. Not yet. The circumstances within which your dad did the flush are a bit vague but only if engine was hot, then dry of coolant, then hosed with water would I be worried. Continously bathed in water, whether existing warm coolant or lukewarm garden hose water, I don't care how long the engine was run there would be no worries of a head gasket blowing...nice smooth heat transfer through the metal in question. It doesn't matter if it's fed lukewarm water in that state and the engine gets up to normal operating temperature.

PLEASE, your engine probably needs a new one anyways, assume that the water pump has leakage and plan a replacement of it. Clean off your engine, get some Pennzoil Steam Premium in a can...nay, get TWO, and clean it off good top and bottom with them....follow the instructions....ignore sdpatt's protests about using garden hose on engine (sorry Scott, maybe we can both agree that the benefits of an externally clean engine in this case outway your gripes about hose water on motor...I don't know if that merits a common ground to you, but IMHO clean grease free motor top and bottom is a whole 'nuther world to these kind of diagnostics for a novice) and then get under there with a light after driving the car and raising it up to give you wiggle room. The heater hoses? Well, when you are on your back under there you can look up above where the oil pressure sender is on the block. Leaky lower heater hoses will drip down from that area and it's REALLY easy to locate that leak when the motor is CLEAN down there.

Coolant leaks -> water pump, hoses (there are lots of them). That's what you want to rule out now. If you've got milkshake oil then you've got justification for pulling the heads.

You might want to rent a cooling system pressure tester from autozone so you can do all this inspecting while the car is cold. I've never done that, though I should have, but it's been a couple years since I've had the need to. It's a good idea.

 

[92ShoOff]

Hey Rick, thanks for the suggestions on that. You and Scott both are absolutely right about wanting to change out that water pump. It may or may not be the problem, but I'm sure this car never had a 60k done to it, and I'm now at 137k, though I've changed most of the parts suggested by the 60k service one at a time as they go bad lol.

But now that I know a little more about the front side of the motor after getting some really good looks at it today, I guess the water pump is leaking somewhere, and it's dripping down around the timing cover gasket, NOT the front main seal. Boy that was a bad call about that being the front main seal on my part. Haha, what can I say... it was dark when I loked that one day.

And I totally agree about a clean engine. A clean engine in most all cases means the thing has been well taken care of. In MOST cases. And with all the residue and grime built up on the front of it from all this leaking, I AM going to want to clean her down after I get it all taken care of. I plan on getting the upper gaskets kit from Mike, as well as a reman. water pump. I'll do the front side of the engine one weekend, then the top part the following weekend. I do need new valve stem seals so I might as well tear the whole top end of and use all new gaskets.

And coincidentally, my dad rented a pressure tester today and we're going to use it on Saturday to see if we don't spot another leak. But I'm supposed to test it when it's cold? I thought you'd due this at normal operating temperature when the pressure has built up. That's when the leak is going to be more noticeable, for sure. Well thanks again Rick, and thank the rest of you again also that have put in your suggestions. Take care fellas!

 

[shojuan]

And coincidentally, my dad rented a pressure tester today and we're going to use it on Saturday to see if we don't spot another leak. But I'm supposed to test it when it's cold? I thought you'd due this at normal operating temperature when the pressure has built up. That's when the leak is going to be more noticeable, for sure.

Glad you're going to replace the pump and attack some of the past due maintenance issues. Always a good place to start and when things are apart doing the maintenance you'll have better access as far as taking a looksee for any other trouble areas. :thumbs_u:

With the pressure tester you pressurize the system with a hand pump while it's cold. Did it come with instructions? If not then maybe a quick search on the web or somebody here can tell you exactly how to go about using it. I've never used one or held one in my paws.

Good luck this weekend! A can of PB Blaster will be handy to have on hand to spray all the fasteners you want to loosen. I just wish that stuff smelled better.

 

[roswell998]

........I do need new valve stem seals so I might as well tear the whole top end of and use all new gaskets..............

Just curious...........are you burning oil? Was wondering how you diagnosed the need for valve stem seals. Also, if you are burning oil, have you run a compression check?

.

 

[92ShoOff]

Hey again fellas. Rick, yeah I'm sure it came with instructions, but you never know. I haven't checked yet, but yeah I'll find some instructions on the net somewhere if need be. Thanks for the good luck man, I'll need that for sure. I don't plan on doing tearing the front end until next weekend though, and the top end hopefully the following weekend. And this PB Blaster... I've heard good stuff about it. Where can I find that stuff??

And roswell, almost everytime I start up the car in the mornings in blows grayish smoke everywhere. And when I had my new tail-pipes installed some months back they were covered with sut on the inside just days later. Which probably explains me failing my state emissions twice now. I used that stuff you put in your gas tank that guarantees you pass emissions after driving a full tank of gas with that stuff. I was SO close to passing that second time, but failed the Nox part by a hair. But yeah, I think the burning oil is holding me back from passing. Haven't run a compression check though, but I'll add that to my list for that weekend I tear the top end off probably. Or at least maybe test the front cylinders this weekend. I hate messing with the rear side

Thanks again you guys!

 

[roswell998]

Sounds like you have several time consuming tasks ahead. Probably a 3CJ.

Good luck


ps......3CJ = 3 Case beverage of your choice job


.

 

[shojuan]

And this PB Blaster... I've heard good stuff about it. Where can I find that stuff??

Walmart or Autozone.