Converting A/C to R134

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1stGenSHO

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Has anyone coverted their A/C system to R134 recently?
I am trying to get a ballpark figure before contacting some shops.

My compressor (R12) locked up while cruising on the freeway and I figure that changing to R134 at this point would not be much more.

Thanks,
1stGenSHO
 

sdpatt

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The conversion with oil flush and new dessicant , refrigerant and some seals was about $150 at a Ford dealership. You should call around.
 

Cobria

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After reading the numerous post from both sdpatt and rangerj (thanks guys) I recently did the conversion from r12 - r134. After determining the compressor etc was working I went to advanced auto and bought a conversion kit for $35. The kit came with all the new fittings for the r134 system, the fill hoses, and 3 cans of r134 complete with the proper amount of oil, seal conditioner, and leak stop already in the cans. Filled the system up and it's working great. If the temp is above 100 it takes it a little while to get the car cold, but in 90 degrees and lower it gets cold almost instantly.

David
 

rangerj

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1st Generation SHO and Cobria,
To convert an A/C system that is using R-12 to R-134a without flushing out the R12 oil, and replacing the filter/dryer can be done, BUT it is risky. If you flush the system, DO NOT do anything to the compressor, other than drain the R-12 oil out of it.

The risk you run is that your system may end up being plugged on either the high or low side, and/or the compressor being destroyed by moisture and/or the microscopic bits of metal (compressor ware)that do not get trapped in the filter.

You could get lucky and go for several years before any of this bad stuff happens.

Most auto parts stores sell a "flushing kit" for about $50, and a good conversion kit should have the R-134a oil, springs, "O" rings, and R-134a fittings with caps. The conversion kit should be specific to the make of car, in this case Ford.

The system, once it is put back together, should then be vacuumed at about 30 inches of vacuum (depending on altitude - subtract 1 inch of vacuum for each 1000 feet above sea level)for no less than 30 minutes. I like to vacuum for 30 minutes, then let it set for 30 minutes to check for any leakdown. Then I vacuum for 30 more minutes.

Moisture (water) has a boiling temperature of 212 degrees F, at normal atmospheric pressure (approx 14lbs). Increase pressure, and the boiling point rises, for example your radiator cap at 16 lbs.

The boiling point is lowered under a vacuum. At approximately 30 inches of vacuum, water will boil at room temperature. The vacuum process is very important for the removal of moisture AND any remaining R-12.

Keep in mind that an A/C system is NOT an R-12 or An R134a "SYSTEM" any more than you gas tank is a Sunoco, or a Texaco gas tank. The exception to this statement is the seals and/or "o" rings have been changed to be compatable with the properties of R134a and R-134a oil. The oil in a conversion kit is a synthetic (ester) oil. Use R-134a oil made for a conversion (should be in the "kit".

Recharge the system with R-134a refrigerant. Use 80 to 85 percent of the amount of R-12 specified for the System. A 36 ounce charge of R-12, would be approximately 30 ounces of R-134a. This difference is due to the properties of the two different Fluids. ( I'll leave it at that, rather than go into a discussion of chemesty, physics, and thermodynamics)

I like to add approximately 24 ounces of R-134a, and then add enough additional R-134a to achieve 50 psi on the low (suction) side, and approximately 250 psi on the high side, depending on the outside temperature and the underhood temperature (ambient temp). In addition I shoot for a 35 to 40 degree temperature of the air coming out of the center of the dash, with the A/C on Max, and the blower on high, with the windows up.

The mechanics of the conversion are simple nuts and bolts. A set of R-134a guages, a vacuum pump, a thermometer, and a set of the tools used to spread the springs at the hose couplings (available at Auto Zone and other parts stores), are the tools needed (plus normal hand tools).

This is not a very difficult job. However, you must keep in mind that you are dealing with a liquid that has a boiling point of something below -200 degrees (-200+). If you get this liquid in your eyes the damage can be permanent and substantial. Instant frostbite! Wear safety equiptment. It remains a liquid because it is under pressure (raising the boiling point) in the can.

If you hook up the can to the high pressure side, which is supposed to be impossible but I have heard of folks doing it, you have an explosive situation on your hands (maybe literally if your holding the can). I am not trying to frighten anyone away from this job, but rather giving a warning that it cannot be taken lightly.

SDPATT, and others, please add anything that might make this post clearer, more correct, and/or more helpful. Thanks rangerj
 

luigisho

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Just a quick aside question. I was looking for some a/c gauges on the cheap and found some for $29 at Harbor Freight Tools with dial hash marks/numbers for reading both r-12 and r-134a. This seems really cheap, and why else go to HF? Is the accuracy going to be even close? I'd rather not pay $90+ for these if possible.
 

sdpatt

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rangerj, as a man with a degree in nuclear engineering, I enjoyed your discussion of the correct method for the refrigerant conversion. Well done.

All I can add to that is that is took a bit of experimentation to find a repeatable method to correctly charge the system for maximum cooling. I found the system pressure to be most representative of the true charge with the engine off and cold.

The gauge in my charging kit has a temperature scale beside the pressure scale. I found that the pressure that resulted in the best operation of the system was the one that coincided with the ambient temperature when the engine was not running and the engine compartment was at ambient temperature. I charged to the pressure that coincided with the temperature when I This resulted in a low side pressure of 50 psig and a high side pressure of 250 psig with an ambient temperature of 85 degrees F, the engine at idle, the cliamte control on MAX A/C and the engine not fully warmed up.

Scott
 

projectSHO89

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luigisho

I bought the 60 or 70 dollar guage set from Harbor, exchanged it twice, and finally returned it because it was crap.

I ended up getting a not quite as crappy set of guages from Advance Auto/PartsAmerica. I had several of the crimped connections blow apart (at about 200 psi) on the red hose and finally put screw clamps on all of them to keep the rest from separating.

Steve
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rangerj

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The question of tools!
The old mechanic who taught me the principles of automotive mechanics, while helping him restore a 1935 five window Ford Coupe, said repeatedly "if you buy cheap you buy twice". He was referring to parts AND tools.

Buying good tools is both an economic issue and a safety issue. If a cheap set of guages bursts at the connection and releases all of your R-12, at $60 per pound, what did you save? If the gas, R-12 or R-134a gets in your eyes when the connection lets go you could pay a very high price for a cheap tool!

Look at it this way. If you are saving $300 by doing a repair yourself, and a tool you need costs $100, then you are still $200 ahead. Plus you will have the tool for many years to come.

My first compressor was a Christmass gift, and my first torque wrench was a birthday present. This is an aside for the younger folks out there who are still on the "family plan". My folks saved more money on the work that I did on the family cars than they ever spent on tools for me!

If you are working on your car because you enjoy it, then it is a hobby. I have a set of golf clubs that have never ever saved me a dime, but my tools have easily saved me money, and made me money over the years. If you enjoy doing the work, and it saves you money, then do it with good tools. It is safer, and they pay for themselves many times in the long run.

Lastly, the most valuable and useful tool you have, if you choose to use it, is the one between your ears.

Scott, thank you for your kind words. They are very much appreciated. I will be using your approach tomorrow. Jack (rangerj)
 

1stGenSHO

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Thanks for your help guys, I really appreciate your advice.
I think the car is beyond a conversion kit though, and because it is still charged with R12 I will take it to a shop. (A/C clutch engages but cannot rotate compressor at any rpm.)

Because of the dead compressor, I'm assuming other parts need to be replaced as well. Correct?

Thanks Again,
1stGenSHO
 

projectSHO89

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1stGen

You might get lucky and find that you just have a worn out clutch instead of a siezed compressor. Way cheaper. Keep your fingers crossed.

Steve
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1stGenSHO

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ProjectSHO89,

I'm prety sure it's munched.
When the A/C quit it made a terrible grinding noise and the belt squeeled awhile before the clutch released (engine was slightly above 3k rpm).

At startup I can get the clutch to engage once, but it sounds like the compressor is grinding rocks and the clutch releases after 2 seconds. After it does this once it will not engage again unless the car is shut off and started up again.

Thanks,
1stGenSHO
 

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