Braking Issues PLEASE HELP Don't feel safe!

[cubanboi89]

So I'm new here and nice to meet you all. Well my problem that I am having with my 89 MTX is that all of the brakes have been replaced, pads calipers, and rotors, new DOT3 fluids and even pressure bled at a shop because I felt I wasn't doing it right and my pedal is very spongy! I don't understand and was wondering if I could get help on what the problem might be??? :thankyou:

 

[93rev2sev]

Can you "Pump up" the brakes? Master cylinder.

 

[rubydist]

or bad vacuum booster on the mc.

 

[cubanboi89]

Yes I can pump up the brakes and it starts to get tight after like 3 pumps while the car is of but I have thought it was also the booster as well but not to sure.

 

[93rev2sev]

If it's the booster, a leak that large would make the engine hiccup. does the tone or speed of the engine change at all when you floor the brakes?

 

[SHOhopefull]

Do they pump up while the car is running? They will get stiff if the car is off.

 

[cubanboi89]

No funny noises or leaks!

 

[cams92SHO]

sounds like a bad master to me....

 

[RonPorter]

"IF" the brake flush was done properly.....

I would also vote for first m/c, then maybe the booster.

Hey, it's an '89!!! Shyte wears out!!

Not that I would know about that!!

 

[cubanboi89]

Weird thing is I had the break system checked by Firestone and they said everything looks fine.

 

[RonPorter]

Weird thing is I had the break system checked by Firestone and they said everything looks fine.

Uh Oh!!......

 

[TimboSHO]

Weird thing is I had the break system checked by Firestone and they said everything looks fine.

Are they the ones that bled the system? How was your pedal before replacing all of your brakes? Did you replace all of your brakes hoping for a better pedal? If they only visually checked your brakes, they wouldn't have found a problem, because it sounds like it's internal to the master cylinder.

 

[cubanboi89]

No I have them pressure bled at a hands on garage in Milwaukee and yes when I replaced all the brakes I was hoping for a sstiffer pedal. I did the whole brake job myself though and when they checked it they drove it as well. The guy that drove it owns a late model Bronco and he said that my pedal felt like his when they where new! Also when they did the check is when I found out I had steel braided brake lines, but I only have 3!

 

[SHOmaniac1975]

How were your brakes before you changed the calipers, etc??

Some times if you have sticking slide pins, pads, or calipers, the brakes will seem stiffer before you correct the problem, and everything is back to proper function.

Did they follow the correct sequence for bleeding, starting at the wheel furthest away?
And did the make sure the proportioning valve was under load while bleeding?

Make sure the rubber/braided brake hoses are not twisted or kinked.

Alot of time time these things will cause a soft pedal.

As well, as improper bleeding of the brakes (pumping up the pedal, instead of small 1/4 down pushes of the brake pedal while bleeding). The ports in the master cylinder are easily clogged, especially if the brake fluid has not been changed on a regular basis.

I always change my fluid, and inspect the caliper pistons any time I change my brakes.

To do a quick test of the master and booster if there are no visible leaks do the following:

With the car off pump the brake pedal a couple times and then hold it, the pedal should stay firm and not descend towards the floor. If this passes, start the car and slowly apply the brake until the car does not move, if the pedal continues to descend towards the floor there is a bypass pressure issue.

Next take the cap off and have some one hold the brake pedal down while you look at the fluid. The fluid should not be swirling or bubbling. If you notice either, the master is probably bad.
Finally with the cap off, have some one apply the brake pedal and quickly release it. You should see a small squirt/sputter of fluid when this is done. If not, then you have a clogged replenish port and the master should be replaced.

If you car passes all these tests, then the master and booster are probably not your problem.

BTW: You should not have to "pressure bleed" your Taurus or Sable brakes.

 

[Devin]

Weird thing is I had the break system checked by Firestone and they said everything looks fine.

Run away from them. With or without brakes. It'll be safer in the long run.

If you aren't comfortable fixing them for yourself, get a brake shop to look at it. That is what I did on mine when after six bleeding sessions I couldn't get the pedal stiff. Turned out my MC went bad...

 

[SHOmaniac1975]

Run away from them. With or without brakes. It'll be safer in the long run.

Hey now, I worked for them as a flat rate tech for 5+ years. Not all Firestone stores have bad technicians, or shady managers. The only thing they all share in common is they charge too much for labor, and greatly mark up the cheapest parts they can find. ( 2.78 x part price when I worked for them, probably more now).

Point being almost all repair facilities in a given area, get their tech's from the same pool.
Some will be really good, and some should not be allowed to even change oil.

 

[RonPorter]

Did they follow the correct sequence for bleeding, starting at the wheel furthest away?
And did the make sure the proportioning valve was under load while bleeding?

BTW: You should not have to "pressure bleed" your Taurus or Sable brakes.

Overall, you had some good advice.

FWIW, the "correct" sequence has been irrelevant since about 1965 with the LF-RR & RF-LR line setup. I always do the rears first, but, in reality, it really doesn't matter.

Vacuum bleeders suck (literally!!), Speed Bleeders are useless except on m/cs and are not a true one-man operation. And they screw up & leak over time.

IMO, a pressure flush with a Motive bleeder is the ONLY way to go!! A true one-man operation, and it does the best, most complete job.

Been using my Motive bleeder for maybe 10 years now. Never have failed to get a hard pedal with the 100+ flushes I've done on mine and other cars.

It is the BEST way to flush the system.

 

[RonPorter]

Oh, IMO, if you want to be ****, you can jack up a rear wheel to fully "open" the proportioning valve. In reality, I don't see where it matters.

I have never done that, and still have gotten a good flow from the Motive in the rears (well, except one SHO that had swollen brake lines).

That valve is pretty much useless IMO, and the flow change isn't that great. I guess it was good enough for cutting the flow to rear drum brakes in SLOs, though.

 

[SHOmaniac1975]

Overall, you had some good advice.

FWIW, the "correct" sequence has been irrelevant since about 1965 with the LF-RR & RF-LR line setup. I always do the rears first, but, in reality, it really doesn't matter.

Vacuum bleeders suck (literally!!), Speed Bleeders are useless except on m/cs and are not a true one-man operation. And they screw up & leak over time.

IMO, a pressure flush with a Motive bleeder is the ONLY way to go!! A true one-man operation, and it does the best, most complete job.

Been using my Motive bleeder for maybe 10 years now. Never have failed to get a hard pedal with the 100+ flushes I've done on mine and other cars.

It is the BEST way to flush the system.

I am glad your pressure bleeder works for you. The person asking for the help obviously does not have such tools at his disposal, or he would not have had that service performed at a service station.

I think you have misunderstood the advice I have given.

There is still a sequence for bleeding the brakes, especially if you want to manually do them. You start with the furthest bleeder away and work your way to the closest. And some vehicles, depending on the master cylinder build still require bleeding Left to Right for optimal pedal. This of course is not the case, as you mentioned, with a GEN I or II SHO.

The advice on the proportioning valve is sound on any Taurus or Sable so equipped regardless of being drum or disc. Most of these valves are old and are not readily flowing as well as they should. I have come across more then a couple that were air bound at the valve after bleeding the system dry by a diy tech before it was towed to me for poor pedal feel or fade.

If you are close enough to Motive bleed the system for this gent, them have at it and help him enjoy his SHO.

Otherwise the advice I gave will allow him to fix his car properly with a couple of hand tools. Cause in the end I think he just wants to fix and enjoy his SHO.

If he were in MA I would gladly give him a hand, but this is the best I can do.

 

[cubanboi89]

How were your brakes before you changed the calipers, etc??

Some times if you have sticking slide pins, pads, or calipers, the brakes will seem stiffer before you correct the problem, and everything is back to proper function.

Did they follow the correct sequence for bleeding, starting at the wheel furthest away?
And did the make sure the proportioning valve was under load while bleeding?

Make sure the rubber/braided brake hoses are not twisted or kinked.

Alot of time time these things will cause a soft pedal.

As well, as improper bleeding of the brakes (pumping up the pedal, instead of small 1/4 down pushes of the brake pedal while bleeding). The ports in the master cylinder are easily clogged, especially if the brake fluid has not been changed on a regular basis.

I always change my fluid, and inspect the caliper pistons any time I change my brakes.

To do a quick test of the master and booster if there are no visible leaks do the following:

With the car off pump the brake pedal a couple times and then hold it, the pedal should stay firm and not descend towards the floor. If this passes, start the car and slowly apply the brake until the car does not move, if the pedal continues to descend towards the floor there is a bypass pressure issue.

Next take the cap off and have some one hold the brake pedal down while you look at the fluid. The fluid should not be swirling or bubbling. If you notice either, the master is probably bad.
Finally with the cap off, have some one apply the brake pedal and quickly release it. You should see a small squirt/sputter of fluid when this is done. If not, then you have a clogged replenish port and the master should be replaced.

If you car passes all these tests, then the master and booster are probably not your problem.

BTW: You should not have to "pressure bleed" your Taurus or Sable brakes.

Yea it all checked out fine, proper bleeding and all. But the rear brakes is what was giving me my problems not the fronts, and the rear caliper pins where really stuck. had to heat them twice banged and pulled to get them out. lol but the break system from what I was told was perfect, even the check with the master and the booster. They umm seem to stop fine now but i guess because its an older car and don't have all those computers hooked up the pedal won't never be as firm as a 2012. lol And did I mention that I was hauling a complete load of over 1000lbs? Over 500 in the cabin and trunk and a 250lb Ford luggage trailer with about 250lbs in it... If I didn't then that was also a reason I had to apply more pressure to idk. First time hauling!