Big Brake kit question (mainly 2 piece hat question)

[1993MTXSHO]

I have the old shoshop 12.5" baer kit with a 2 piece rotor. I am having issues with it grinding on my control arm. The hat that is on it has made the rotor move in to far toward the control arm and I cant seem to get it to stop grinding when I take semi hard turns. the guy I got it form sai to grind the control arms as that is what baer said to do. So I did that and then also even put a 3mm wheel spacer behind my rotor, yet It is STILL grinding. So can I get a different offset hat to move the rotor out further so I don't have these issues anymore? My front calipers are floating calipers so there should be some play in them to move with the rotor.

 

[Shoaz]

I seem to remember that you've asked this question before. The answer hasn't changed, and it's the same answer that's been around since Baer first made those kits more than fifteen years ago. In fact, it's the answer that you already quoted in your post, which you were given when you got the kit.

Grind the LCAs for clearance. If there's not clearance, you're not done grinding.

It's really quite simple.

 

[SeanMc]

There you go Eric, doing that wannabe smart person thing again. It really needs to stop, k?

 

[1993MTXSHO]

I seem to remember that you've asked this question before. The answer hasn't changed, and it's the same answer that's been around since Baer first made those kits more than fifteen years ago. In fact, it's the answer that you already quoted in your post, which you were given when you got the kit.

Grind the LCAs for clearance. If there's not clearance, you're not done grinding.

It's really quite simple.

As I said I ground the LCA. The LCA is a structural part of the suspention that holds the front suspension on, I took off as much as I feel comfortable doing (Personally I didn't want any of it coming off, but Baer said it was ok so I did it anyway). I then put a 3mm spacer behind the rotor on top of the grinding. At this point I would think it should not be grinding. The hats I have on the car I was told are custom hats the PO had made up, and I am thinking that this is the reason I am having so many problems. He had them move the front rotor in enough so he could fit it under slicers, so I know this rotor is a lot further in then the original kit was.

Anyway, I guess what I am asking is, where I can get different hats for this setup that have less of an offset.

 

[Shoaz]

FWIW, these LCAs could use more grinding, but this about what it takes to just start to get adequate clearance:





I doubt you moved the rotor out 3mm or it'd likely be grinding on the caliper bracket. Are you sure that's not what's grinding?

If it's really a 12.5" Baer kit and the knuckle and caliper brackets haven't been subsequently modified, then the grinding shown above is about what you need to do.

The aluminum hat from TCE works fine this way. If you really think the hat is the problem then call Todd and get the right one. If the rotor isn't grinding on the caliper bracket, though, I don't see how it can be a problem with the hat. But what do I know, right?

One other possibility is that somebody subsequently ordered replacement rotors (rings) and didn't spec the "eye" opening big enough. You can take them off and measure that, it should be 8 7/8" opening or a little better than that.

My bet: Grind the LCAs. That's what everybody's been doing on these kits forever. If the rotor fits in the caliper bracket without grinding, it's located properly as long as the bracket and the knuckle are really correct for the Baer 12.5" kit.

And if you haven't figure it out yet, there's another surprise with this kit: The brake lines may rub on the tires. There are a bunch of fixes for that, too.

Edit: Yes, those are the same pics I posted the last time you asked about this.

 

[1993MTXSHO]

FWIW, these LCAs could use more grinding, but this about what it takes to just start to get adequate clearance:





I doubt you moved the rotor out 3mm or it'd likely be grinding on the caliper bracket. Are you sure that's not what's grinding?

If it's really a 12.5" Baer kit and the knuckle and caliper brackets haven't been subsequently modified, then the grinding shown above is about what you need to do.

The aluminum hat from TCE works fine this way. If you really think the hat is the problem then call Todd and get the right one. If the rotor isn't grinding on the caliper bracket, though, I don't see how it can be a problem with the hat. But what do I know, right?

One other possibility is that somebody subsequently ordered replacement rotors (rings) and didn't spec the "eye" opening big enough. You can take them off and measure that, it should be 8 7/8" opening or a little better than that.

My bet: Grind the LCAs. That's what everybody's been doing on these kits forever. If the rotor fits in the caliper bracket without grinding, it's located properly as long as the bracket and the knuckle are really correct for the Baer 12.5" kit.

And if you haven't figure it out yet, there's another surprise with this kit: The brake lines may rub on the tires. There are a bunch of fixes for that, too.

Edit: Yes, those are the same pics I posted the last time you asked about this.

I ground more then that off my LCA's already, and you can stop with the "it was in the last thread shit because it's really not productive and is actually quite pointless. Also I HAVE moved it out 3mm because I have 3mm spacers behind it. I am sure that is not what is grinding because it has left a nice line on my rotors from the LCA grinding on it. I will have to measure the opening in the rotors when I get home in a week and I will report back.

 

[SinisterSHO]

Is it always grinding, or only when you take hard turns?

 

[Shoaz]

I ground more then that off my LCA's already, and you can stop with the "it was in the last thread shit because it's really not productive and is actually quite pointless.

Then tell us what's different this time. It sounds to me like you're asking the same question again. If you want productivity provide details that'll help to actually answer the question you really want asked.

Also I HAVE moved it out 3mm because I have 3mm spacers behind it.

How thick is your rotor? With a 1 1/8" rotor there isn't 3mm of clearance to move the rotor within the caliper bracket, hence my skepticism. It's more like 1mm. You either have thinner rotors (in which case you should already have more clearance, anyway, since the difference will increase the gap on the inside), or something else is awry. What you're describing isn't adding up. Pics would help.

I am sure that is not what is grinding because it has left a nice line on my rotors from the LCA grinding on it. I will have to measure the opening in the rotors when I get home in a week and I will report back.

A line? On the inside rotor face? How far from the inside edge? When it rubs it typically rubs just on the edge of the inside eye opening. If you're getting a line on the rotor face I think you may have a different problem.

 

[St Louis SHO]

I'll bet the clip on the brake pad is touching the rotor. It happened on my straight up Cobra kit. If the line in the rotor is about 1/4" to 1/2", that could be an issue.

 

[1993MTXSHO]

Is it always grinding, or only when you take hard turns?

only when I take semi hard turns, it really doesn't have to be very hard, but just more then your average driver would take in their taurus.

Then tell us what's different this time. It sounds to me like you're asking the same question again. If you want productivity provide details that'll help to actually answer the question you really want asked.

No last time I was asking why it was HITTING the LCA, then I was told that it was b/c I had to grind the LCA. So I did so, and then just threw the spacer back there to get the car mobile so get inside for winter.

How thick is your rotor? With a 1 1/8" rotor there isn't 3mm of clearance to move the rotor within the caliper bracket, hence my skepticism. It's more like 1mm. You either have thinner rotors (in which case you should already have more clearance, anyway, since the difference will increase the gap on the inside), or something else is awry. What you're describing isn't adding up. Pics would help.

I am not sure how thick the rotor is I am not home to measure it, but will be in a week. But IIRC it's not huge, my guess would be .75-1", I do not remember it being any bigger then that.

A line? On the inside rotor face? How far from the inside edge? When it rubs it typically rubs just on the edge of the inside eye opening. If you're getting a line on the rotor face I think you may have a different problem.

not where the pad rubs, but right on the center of the rotor where the LCA would rub, so unless it is an old line that is why I feel like the LCA is still hitting.

I'll bet the clip on the brake pad is touching the rotor. It happened on my straight up Cobra kit. If the line in the rotor is about 1/4" to 1/2", that could be an issue.

I'll have to take a look at that, because it does sound like a squealing type sound not as much of a grinding sound that I would think the LCA would make. I do have about 2mm of space between the rotor and the LCA once everything is bolted up and the car is on the ground. I have only driven this car 100 miles in the past 2+ years so I am trying to remember from this summer what it was doing. I will get home and try to take it out this coming weekend and get some pics/measurements of it.

 

[Shoaz]

No last time I was asking why it was HITTING the LCA, then I was told that it was b/c I had to grind the LCA. So I did so, and then just threw the spacer back there to get the car mobile so get inside for winter.

If you don't grind it enough it'll still rub, obviously. Have you ground around the edges of the LCA like in the pics above to accommodate steering angles? If you don't want it to rub ever it needs to be radiused quite a bit to cover combinations of steering angle and suspension bump travel.

I am not sure how thick the rotor is I am not home to measure it, but will be in a week. But IIRC it's not huge, my guess would be .75-1", I do not remember it being any bigger then that.

The thinner the rotor the more inside clearance you should have and the more distance from the LCA. I have 1 1/8" rotors and the LCAs ground as shown above. If you have 1" rotors you should 1/8" additional clearance if the hat is still mounted flush to the outside face of the rotor.

I'll have to take a look at that, because it does sound like a squealing type sound not as much of a grinding sound that I would think the LCA would make. I do have about 2mm of space between the rotor and the LCA once everything is bolted up and the car is on the ground. I have only driven this car 100 miles in the past 2+ years so I am trying to remember from this summer what it was doing. I will get home and try to take it out this coming weekend and get some pics/measurements of it.

The anti-rattle clips rubbing wouldn't generally be steering angle dependent. If it is the clips rubbing you can just take them off. I always delete them.

 

[1993MTXSHO]

If you don't grind it enough it'll still rub, obviously. Have you ground around the edges of the LCA like in the pics above to accommodate steering angles? If you don't want it to rub ever it needs to be radiused quite a bit to cover combinations of steering angle and suspension bump travel.

Yes I have ground it like the pics and went all around the edges. I will get soem pics of what I did in a week when I am home and near the car.

The thinner the rotor the more inside clearance you should have and the more distance from the LCA. I have 1 1/8" rotors and the LCAs ground as shown above. If you have 1" rotors you should 1/8" additional clearance if the hat is still mounted flush to the outside face of the rotor.

I believe these are custom hats specifically designed to work with my specific rotors. I remember the PO saying that, so I am thinking this is why I am having problems, they are not the original hats that were supposed to come with the kit. Also I do have the moog greasable LCA's they are not stock LCA's, could this be part of the problem? I remember them being a different shape.

The anti-rattle clips rubbing wouldn't generally be steering angle dependent. If it is the clips rubbing you can just take them off. I always delete them.

I am pretty sure I have already ripped them off as I usually do the same thing. But I will have to take a look to be sure.

 

[Shoaz]

I believe these are custom hats specifically designed to work with my specific rotors. I remember the PO saying that, so I am thinking this is why I am having problems, they are not the original hats that were supposed to come with the kit. Also I do have the moog greasable LCA's they are not stock LCA's, could this be part of the problem? I remember them being a different shape.

Didn't you post pics of the rotors and hats last time? IIRC they're TCE hats/rotors, so you should be good. Baer never sold two-piece rotors for these kits.

I'm not familiar with the Moog LCAs, but that could be the problem if you can't grind away enough to get clearance.

 

[1993MTXSHO]

Didn't you post pics of the rotors and hats last time? IIRC they're TCE hats/rotors, so you should be good. Baer never sold two-piece rotors for these kits.

I'm not familiar with the Moog LCAs, but that could be the problem if you can't grind away enough to get clearance.

yes I did but I have long since deleted those pictures. Also yes liek I said these were custom by the PO, but maybe that is what he meant by custom, that he just bought the 2 piece rotor setup for it.

Has anyone else every had any problems with this kit and the moog control arms?

 

[St Louis SHO]

Didn't you post pics of the rotors and hats last time? IIRC they're TCE hats/rotors, so you should be good. Baer never sold two-piece rotors for these kits.

I'm not familiar with the Moog LCAs, but that could be the problem if you can't grind away enough to get clearance.

Moogs are much larger on the bottom area (where you grind) I dont think you could grind enough away with a moog arm....

 

[1993MTXSHO]

Moogs are much larger on the bottom area (where you grind) I dont think you could grind enough away with a moog arm....

And this is why I was afraid to grind more then I already have, so it seems this is the problem. My LCA's are just plain to big. Is there anyway around this such a buying a different hat or something because I really like the moog control arms and don't want to have to change them if I can help it.

 

[St Louis SHO]

Buy the correct 13" rotors and be done with it. I know you're trying to keep the 2 peice rotors, but either replace them, or deal with it

 

[1993MTXSHO]

Buy the correct 13" rotors and be done with it. I know you're trying to keep the 2 peice rotors, but either replace them, or deal with it

My kit is designed for the 12.5" rotors. Not only are they 2 piece, but they have 4k miles on them and are slotted. They are not cheap rotors by any means. I also only have 16" wheels and I might not be able to fit them over a 13" rotor, although they are Team dynamics and have a lot of room so it is possible. But I would like to just replace the hats, my rotors are not the problem, it's the offset that the hat is causing, combined with the non stock control arms.

 

[gmorrell]

I've been running the Baer 12.5" brakes since some of you were in diapers. Here's my solution to the ball joint rub. And yes, the ball joints still have to be clearanced, even with this mod, but this keeps the problem from becoming acute when the suspension is in full bump.

First, measure the hat offset from the back face of the rotor to the inside surface of the hat where it seats on the hub, it should be ~1.90" for a new rotor (must subtract 1" from the caliper reading for the thickness of the scale) If the hat offset isn't right, you need to correct that first:


If the rotor is not the unused thickbess (1.1"), you'll need to do some math:

1.9 - (1.1 - measured rotor thickness / 2) should be ~equal to what you measure for hat offset with a used rotor.

This is a new 2-piece rotor (Todd's hats and 13" Coleman rotors cut down to 12.5" O.D.) that I have not cut a chamfer. Note the inside diameter is ~8.25":


This is an old Baer one-piece rotor that I cut a 45º X 1/4" chamfer on the back-inside edge to help clear the ball joint. Note that the chamfer O.D. is ~8.75" now:


Here is a closeup showing a pad on the rotor and it's relationship to the chamfer, so you can see that we're not cutting into the braking surface. You can see some light scuffing on this rotor from the ball joint, but it isn't enough to be a problem. If it bugged you, you could cut a wider chamfer, just stay away from where the brake pads run:


Check the hat offset, then take thy rotors to a machinist and have a chamfer cut on the inside back edge.

 

[ManySHOs]

Nick

Aren't these Michael Olsen's old rotors? If so, they are the TCE 2 piece replacements. I don't think that Michael spec'ed them out differently than Todd (TCE) would have offered them but you may want to check with Michael to make sure. You are using the correct caliper brackets for the 12.5" setup, correct?

Ian