best brakes for the buck

[RJ-92]

I have 11.6 in the front with the PBRs and SS lines I did them myself for a little over $500. I auto-x a bit but rarely get to the track so they're adequate for me.

It will also be getting 11.6 rears this summer.

 

[Todd TCE]

I've always chuckled that the one chart of comparrisons did not include even the original SHOstopper kit.... made a couple of attempts to ask why not and never got a reply.

Wonder if they were a bit worried about their own purchase decision.

 

[Mike Kopstain]

What chart?

 

[Machspeed]

Yamaha V6:
Just remember David - on the 91, you need to replace the knuckles (among other things) too. Only the 94/95 keep the existing knuckle for the 96 upgrade.

YUp i know wink

 

[cyanmauve]

If you want the "ultimate" set up, go to Todd at TCE. If you want a really nice street set up that will still be at home on the track, go for the 13in Baer set up at Midwest SHO. I love my set up, 11.6in rotors with PBR dual piston calipers, braided stainless steel lines, and Performance Friction Z pads. On the "low" end is the stock 96 set up, which is still plenty of break for moderate sporting drives and some light on track use.

 

[shojuan]

Keep in mind that the TCE kits are lighter than stock which is really nice. The PBR and 11.6" upgrade kits are heavier than stock. When I was doing an 11.6 upgrade for somebody a few months ago I was really shocked at how heavy the 11.6" rotors felt. Wouldn't want to be adding that weight to my car. Especially considering that I've got the lightest of the stock setups, the 89 brakes. The light Wilwood calipers keep unsprung weight down. The light (they're light because the hats are aluminum) TCE rotors cut down on rotating mass AND unsprung weight. Note that's just me. People love their 11.6 upgrades and also the PBRs. They just don't represent the ultimate upgrade for me.

I'd like to hear more about the pedal feel issues. Fred, you're complaining about the pedal feel of your Wilwood's vs. the 96 brakes. Anybody with different Wilwood calipers have a different opinion?

 

[sdpatt]

stuntstud2:
I was looking at Midwest SHO's 13in upgrade, and TCE's 13in upgrade. What is the difference, because there is obviously a huge difference in price. Is TCE's just that much better. Or are there some components that are different in each kit?

Todd when I say the best I mean the best. Which brakes will allow my car to stop the fastest and do it most often with shortest amount of down time, and still have a long life. That to me is the best.

Unless you are planning on road course action, you are talking about spending a significant amount of money on an upgrade that you really don't need. On my seasoned car, even the stock sized rotors in combination with Performance Friction Carbon Metallic pads ($28 lifetime, now on 7th set) has yet to fade on LSSHOC Runs and even a day of four 20 minute road racing sessions at the Texas MotorSport Ranch.

This combination is more than sufficient to require anti-lock action to keep the tires rolling with even fairly sticky tires. The brake systems you are describing are definitely superior in fade resistance to the stock setup, but hardly mandatory for street use. You can never have too much brake power, but you may want to seriously consider the intended usage of your car before spending the big bucks on brakes.

 

[drivinhard]

"Keep in mind that the TCE kits are lighter than stock which is really nice"

Yes, they are by far. The 12.2" TCE kit is 30 lbs lighter than the 96 brakes. For those of us that are keeping score, that's a ton of (unsprung)weight.

As for the brake feel, I think it's probably a combo of the bridged 2 piece caliper and the larger total piston area. I personally like it, I think it's easier to modulate at the track, and frankly puts the pedal even with the go-go pedal, which is easy to roll over on and blip for heel/toe downshifts for those balls out laps

I got sick of ripping up 96 brakes on my 92 at the track, so when I was building the 89 I wanted something that was going to last. I get SO much more mileage out of the pads on the wilwoods compared to the 96 (through a set of $100 carbotech pads EVERY event) they've probably come darn close to paying for themselves by now. (The "A" pads outlast the rotors, literally wear the rotors out first! lol). I'm totally blown away at how well the pads wear, literaly all season this year on 1 set of pads.

The entry price is a few bucks, but rotor/pad replacement costs for the wilwoods are very reasonable, as are rebuild kits for the calipers. Plus the kit isn't just a couple of calipers and rotors in a box, custom brackets, new hubs and bearings, with powdercoated modified knuckles, etc. when you look at all the stuff that comes with it, it's actually a good deal. I run the "A" pads on my 89, with ATE fluid and have been 95% pleased with the brakes. No matter how hot they get, or how deep you go in, they are always there. Being confident in your car (and brakes) is where your quick lap times come in, when you know it's going to stay under you, you can take it right to the edge.

<small>[ December 10, 2003, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: drivinhard ]</small>

 

[Lance Cheney]

Mark,

What Carbotech pads were you using (I'm guessing, solely on the $100 figure, that you were using a street compound)? My '96 brakes with Panther XP pads have gone through 4 or 5 track events, including one at Laguna Seca, and still have about half the pad left, and seem to be very friendly on the rotors. I haven't had any noticeable problems with fade yet.
I agree that for a mostly tracked car the money should be spent on a good setup, Todd's kit being the one to get. For a car that only gets tracked three or four times a year, it seems that a '96 upgrade *with track pads* works pretty well. Of course, you have to swap the pads (and matching rotors) before and after each event unless you like noisy brakes on the street. But you'd have to do that with any kit if you had track-suitable set of pads anyway.
I have a buddy that almost wrecked his car because he left 'J' pads on the car after a track event. About three months later (of street driving) the rotors were quite literally down to the ribs, and the pistons on the calipers pushed out so far that the seals didn't hold anymore.
I drove my set of 96+ Panther+ pads on the street for ~15,000 miles and had one track event on them and the rotors are still in great shape and stop hard when you want them, even cold.

I tried Porterfield R4 (the full race ones, not 'S') on my stock '92 brakes and they were ok, but they really show inadequacies if you're running race tires. I'm surprised Scott has gotten decent results out of the PF pads at the track -- I disliked their performance on the '92 brakes even for street driving, and made the mistake of getting a set for the '96 upgrade as well.

Having said all that, at this point with the power mods on the car (+ coilovers about to go on), if I didn't have the '96 upgrade and $300 in pads and rotors already, I'd get a Sho Stopper kit, because it's lighter, more fade-free, and looks cool, and it's the best kit that will fit under my 16" wheels, since I'm too cheap to buy bigger ones.

-Lance

 

[Shoaz]

To be fair you can get two piece, aluminum hat rotors for the PBR setups as well. Baer sells their eradispeed system for the 12" and 13" SHO kits, but not for the 12.5". Other routes can alway be taken to get there, though...

 

[drivinhard]

I tried both IIRC, F street or whatever they were called and the track/panther.

"My '96 brakes with Panther XP pads have gone through 4 or 5 track events, including one at Laguna Seca, and still have about half the pad left, and seem to be very friendly on the rotors. I haven't had any noticeable problems with fade yet."

What tires do you run? The grip of the tire will determine how hard the brakes work, with Z street tires the pads would hang in there ok. With track rubber (V700 comp tires) I would generate so much more bite the brakes couldn't hang. I literally went through a set of pads every event (around 100-110 track miles and 80-90 mins of flat out running). Very fast pace, no let up all day.

The other side of it is the 89 is pretty easy on brakes. Frankly doesn't have a ton of power to generate warp 9 speeds on straights, it's sorta light (max race weight is ~3280), and corners pretty hard (ie faster entry/exit speed, less to scrub off before a corner). I don't find myself really digging into the brakes all that hard, not even as much as I did with my mostly stock 92.

Todd keeps teasing me with the new forged calipers, but beyond that I just want a little more rotor. I have 1" upgrade which hopefully takes care of my rotor warping/cracking problems. Other than that, the 12.2" kit with the "A" pads generates some pretty serious bite. Enough to where I REALLY had to spend some time re-learning threshhold braking with no ABS. It's hard to be right on the edge without locking the tires, even with the sticky comp tires, you can lock them at will. Big time bite.

case in point I forgot my gloves that run, I'm so used to them I loose all driving ability without them

http://www.shocago.com/multimedia/video/videos/offtrack.mpg

<small>[ December 10, 2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: drivinhard ]</small>

 

[Todd TCE]

For the record;
The BSLs have slightly less piston area than stock.
The older SLIIA calipers slightly more.

The softer pedal is related to the open bridge design of the BSL, not the piston area. The older IIAs did were even perhaps more solid feeling than the BSLs,

The FSL replacement is nearly the same area but fully bridged so will be much stiffer. It's also not differential bore so some don't like that. For that you need the six *** today. And ANY owner of a kit with the BSLs can get a smokin' deal on them if and at any time they want to change.

Wider rotors are now an option as I stated prior.

 

[drivinhard]

Todd do you have a FSL and a BSL on the shelf you could weigh and see how much they differ? Just for curiosity.

How much is the same bore size going to matter real world? I still get uneven pad wear with the differential bores...

 

[Hack]

Todd TCE:

Serious? Email me and I'll work you a year end deal. No specials after Christmas. (yea, I got gifts to buy too)

Todd, expect an email before Christmas. As soon as my Christmas bonus check arrives, I will be contacting you.
thumb burnout

 

[Machspeed]

Not to change the topic or anything, but im hearing a lot of experienced people are liking theyre performance friction carbon metalics on the 11.6"? (I worked at autozone so i remembered we carried them, with a lifetime warranty which is the best part) I was thinking of gettin some hawk pads but they are a lot more. Are the performance frictions the way to go? Are the hawks worth the extra $$$?

 

[Todd TCE]

The difference between the BSL and FSL is minimal. I'm guessing maybe 2lbs each?

But yes, they are no diff bore, you need the six for that today. And it weighs about 3-4lbs more than the BSL.

A word of advise on this; mass is not a bad thing in brakes folks, you'll not get the same performance from lighter parts in some respect as you will with heavier parts.

Wider rotors don't stop a car any better, they just allow for more heat saturation.

Heavier calipers don't create more clamp load, only make it more firm and direct with less loss of wasted energy.

But....if you still have those darn wheels.....

 

[K-Dawg]

David, what are your intentions for the car? What do you want to get out of it?

IIRC, last I knew, and this was a while ago, the PFCMs didn't come in the 598 size for the Gen III upgrade.

 

[Mike Kopstain]

FOR SHO:
Not to change the topic or anything, but im hearing a lot of experienced people are liking theyre performance friction carbon metalics on the 11.6"? (I worked at autozone so i remembered we carried them, with a lifetime warranty which is the best part) I was thinking of gettin some hawk pads but they are a lot more. Are the performance frictions the way to go? Are the hawks worth the extra $$$?

For daily driving they will suit you just fine. I have them with my 12" upgrade on the Grand Prix and they stop that boat down just fine. For extreme performance on a 96' brake upgrade, I would go with the Carbotech Bobcats. They are about $30.00 more than the Hawks, but dust less and the braking with them is incredible.

 

[3.8Lwagon]

about a year a go i rebuilt my front end and replaced the wheel bearings.
i was woundering what the mods are to the spinder for the 12.5 shoshopper are? can they be done at home?

 

[K-Dawg]

Fo shizzle.