Bad Starter Relay Switch Quality

[DeepPower]

Last month I went to start my car at work - nothing happened. Suspecting the starter, I had some friends help me push-start the car and I drove to my mechanic who was luckily only one mile away.

A quick diagnosis turned up a bad - what it is called - starter relay switch, or starter switch - it's the switch mounted on the fender. A fast, inexpensive replacement.

Yesterday I started the car and I heard this horrible sound - sounded like the starter was still running while the engine was running! I turned the key off the the problem did not repeat.

So I'm going to replace it again, but my question is one of quality. I examined the starter relay switch and I could find no brand markings. It's brown, that's it. Any recommendations as to quality manufacturers for this part?

 

[luigisho]

Can you get a Motorcraft or ford brand still on the shelf? Most of the replacement electronics are really cheap Chinese junk. This goes for solenoids, windings, everything is far inferior than oem stuff for starter and alternator components. Most of this stuff is a crapshoot. If oem is not available I usually go with motorcraft or ac delco stuff.

 

[DeepPower]

Thanks. Looks like you are talking about this part here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C5FTKY/

I'll get myself a Motorcraft.

I've been reading about a lot of knockoffs out there, substituting Motorcraft with cheap Chinese crap. So I just ordered the above from Amazon seller 1stcallautoparts. I contacted them first, and they happily verified they have the real deal!

 

[jimtash]

Had a 2 year old Napa relay go bad recently. Not at all impressed with aftermarket replacement parts.

 

[luigisho]

Not at all impressed with aftermarket replacement parts.

This has been my experience for almost 30yrs of driving. A few exceptions but, to generalize, pretty crummy.

 

[DeepPower]

Well, replaced the starter relay with the Motorcraft two weeks ago. And today, I go to start the car and the starter won't turn off, even when I pulled the key out of the ignition! Luckily I was still in my garage so as fast as I could I disconnected the battery cable.

I checked the solenoid and yes, the damned Motorcraft starter relay shorted out! A quick trip to O'Reilly Auto Parts and I got myself a Borg Warner relay (plus a spare relay, made by MasterPro ignition).

So this is TWICE this has happened to me - why?. And my starter was running constantly for a little over a minute before I could pull the battery - will that need to be replaced soon too?

 

[luigisho]

http://www.shoforum.com/index.php?threads/starter-solenoid-continuously-frying.117564/

 

[DeepPower]

Same exact damn problem this morning with the new Borg Warner starter relay - starter would not turn off!!!

By the time I got the cable off, now the starter won't work at all. SHO is at my mechanic (I push started it) and I'm reading the above thread.

Is replacing the starter the solution here? Is there a bad brand of starter responsible for this? I'm pretty sure my present (bad) starter is a Bosch.

 

[SHOdded]

Off the cuff, but have you verified all the wiring involved (between battery/starter/solenoid/ignition switch) to see if anything is wired incorrectly or if there is a SHOrt?

 

[DeepPower]

Off the cuff, but have you verified all the wiring involved (between battery/starter/solenoid/ignition switch) to see if anything is wired incorrectly or if there is a SHOrt?

It looks good. The wiring hasn't been touched in years, since I replaced the starter about five years ago.

I've been searching the web and the problem seems to be a Ford problem:
http://www.econofix.com/starters.html
Another way Ford starter solenoids fail
Sometimes a Ford solenoid will "weld it's contacts together" . In this case the starter will keep turning the engine over even after you have released the ignition switch from the "start" position. Sometimes the only way to stop it is to remove one of the battery terminals!
I've had cheap brands of solenoids do this out nof the box, so make sure to get a name brand solenoid when replacing one. Also make sure the ground is good where the solenoid bolts down: free of rust and bolted down tightly.

Also,
http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/why-does-every-starter-solenoid-keep-sticking.657974/
Many engineers use a rectifier diode alone to provide the transient suppression for relay coils. While this is cost effective and fully eliminates the transient voltage, its impact on relay performance can be devastating. Problems of unexplained, random "tack welding" frequently occur in these systems. In some applications, this problem is merely a minor nuisance or inconvenience and the controller or operator will cycle the relay until the proper response is obtained. In many applications; however, the first occurrence may cause a complete system failure or even present a hazardous situation. It is important that these systems be designed with another method of relay suppression.
...Basically to protect the computers in fuel injected cars, a suppression diode was added across the relay coil. This is effective, but has the side effect of keeping the coil energized longer after the starter switch (key) is released, and making the starter relays switch contacts more slowly. This in turn allows them to arc more as they open, and intermittently spot weld together.

So a possible solution is to replace the starter relay on the fender with a relay designed for a more powerful starter. Any suggestions for a replacement? Maybe a Ford truck starter fender relay?

EDIT: Another solution I am looking into - a transient supression circuit around the starter fender relay to prevent the contacts from welding shut.

 

[luigisho]

5 yrs on aftermarket starter sounds about right. Batteries don't last as long as they used to either. I wouldn't get fancy with the circuit. I would try and find the issue and fix it. There's only a few components in the circuit to look for a failure.

 

[DeepPower]

5 yrs on aftermarket starter sounds about right. Batteries don't last as long as they used to either. I wouldn't get fancy with the circuit. I would try and find the issue and fix it. There's only a few components in the circuit to look for a failure.

Don't need to get fancy, I just need to select the proper TVS diode. Luckily my day job involves working with semiconductor suppliers, including manufacturers of TVS diodes! These things cost less than $1 and would not only fix my problem, but possibly increase the lifetime of the starter.

EDIT: I'm going to put a Littelfuse SLD28-018 automotive transient voltage suppressor across the relay contacts, it was made for this application.

 

[DeepPower]

Update: To show how lucky I am, seems there are multiple failures on this one! Seems the ignition switch has gotten stuck on always sending power to the starter relay on the fender, keeping the starter always on. My mechanic is trying to replace it except, well, that would be too easy... the switch has a tamper-proof bolt, and the center pin of that bolt is bent, preventing it's easy removal. He's going to try getting it out tomorrow, if he can't we're going to rig a button under the dash, that will trip another relay, that will turn on the starter relay on the fender. So I'll have a button to start the starter.

Anyone else familiar with this tamper-proof bolt on the ignition switch?

 

[jimtash]

You mean the torx bit with the protrusion in the center? They make bits specifically for them.

 

[DeepPower]

You mean the torx bit with the protrusion in the center? They make bits specifically for them.

Problem is, it has a center pin and that pin is bent hard over so they can't use the tool.

 

[jimtash]

Drill out the center pin until flat and then use a torx bit. Otherwise drill off the head of the screw and take out the rest with pliers.

Treat it like a stripped screw head. Take a Dremel and cut a slot on the top and use a flat head screwdriver. Lots of options are here.

 

[luigisho]

What he said. There's lots of ways to remove it and starting with removing the center pin material is a good idea to start with. There's lots of ways to extract bolts. Mechanics have to deal with this stuff all the time. Growing up in northern salted roads country, backyard DIYers have to do the same all the time.

 

[kevinspann]

At that point I would change to a gen 2 starter. I don't know the exact wiring changes involved but I'm sure it can be found here, or even on a Mustang site for upgrading to a newer starter that has the solenoid mounted on it.

 

[DeepPower]

At that point I would change to a gen 2 starter. I don't know the exact wiring changes involved but I'm sure it can be found here, or even on a Mustang site for upgrading to a newer starter that has the solenoid mounted on it.

What's the advantage of a Gen 2 starter over a Gen 1?

BTW the Gen 1 starter has a solenoid, like most starters. Are you referring to the starter solenoid relay mounted on the fender?

 

[Devin]

The Gen2 has the relay built into the starter, I believe. The fender mounted relay isn't there.