Attempting a SHO swap into an e30

[Hambler]

Hello everyone, I am new to this forum and relatively new to the SHO. My goal this summer is to take the v6 SHO engine and drop it into my bmw E30. I already have come up with a couple basic questions I would love some help on:
1) Is there a benefit to either the 3.0L or the 3.2L?
2) Does anybody know of a 6 speed transmission that is possible to use with these engines?
3) I have seen several people talk about doing this swap, but nobody that has actually completed it. Does anybody know of somebody who has finished this swap?

I have a fair amount of mechanical knowledge, and have access to some incredibly knowledgeable older gentleman about cars. I also have access to, and know how to use, a machine shop with both CNC and manual lathes and mills, as well as a waterjet and a lot of other fun equipment.

Thanks,

Harry

 

[Off Road SHO]

Harry,

Welcome to the madness.

The only transmissions that I know of that bolt up to the SHO motor without the use of an adaptor plate, is the A4LD automatic from Ford and the Mazda M5OD put in the Ford Ranger and Aerostar.

Is there a reason you HAVE to have 6 speeds? Because the SHO motor can live at 7,000 RPM's all day and that gets you into Ludicris speed easily. Since you have access to a CNC machine, you could design, manufacture and sell an adaptor that will bolt these lovely engines to just about any of the wonderful 6 speeds they have on the market right now and the FrankenSHO guys would beat a path to your door.

Kennedy Engineered Products makes adaptors for the rear and mid engined crowd already. I could send you a specimen if you wanted to copy the SHO side of it into a CAD program.

Tom

 

[Hambler]

Tom,

I've read a lot of your stuff on here and I was really hoping you were still active, you definitely seem like the person to talk to. I don't HAVE to have a 6 speed, but it is definitely an appeal to have better launch/low end fun while keeping the drive-ability of highway cruising, and as I reason it would allow the engine to work with a broader spectrum of rear end gears well.

I will soon be purchasing a SHO engine, so I could just get that side of the adapter off the engine correct?

Also, is there a benefit to a 3.2L vs 3.oL? Currently I'm leaning towards the 3.2L, as people seem to say they have better street driving characteristics, and if I am custom mounting a new transmission I don't think there will be very high chances of being able to use the stock flywheel.

Harry

 

[shomethe$$$]

1) Yes, the 3.2L would be better with 3.0L cams and a 93-95 block (thicker and stronger)
2) No six speed has ever been used in any swap that I know of behind a SHO engine
3) Most people gave up on question 2.

Please find another engine you will not be happy with the amount of work it will take to do what your asking. I don't know what made you pick this 20+ old engine which has obsolete parts and weighs more than most V8's. Do you have any other engine candidates?

Try like a Nissan/Infiniti VQ35 engine which has a 6 speed already and only a few hundred more than a SHO engine. How about a late model V6 Mustang/F150 engine already have a Mt82 Getrag behind them, 100's of thousands of these engine's were made. What about GM's 6 speed Aisin MV5 that came with the 3.6L V6 Camaro?

 

[Hambler]

There's several reasons I have picked the SHO engine:
1) The "cool" factor of this engine, its unique and different
2) The cost: I can essentially get one of these engines for free, if not earn money on an engine by buying a cheap SHO and selling a couple parts off the car. (I realize you can make money parting out most wrecks and such, but I'm really not looking to get into the parts business- a couple big tickets items off the SHO and I would have my money back)
3) Most other engines I've considered come back to my first two points, they are either very common or rather expensive. I heavily considered a couple 4 cylinder options, such as the blacktop SVT focus engine or a supercharged Cavalier z24 engine, but ultimately decided I wanted more power than these offered, and they did not offer the reliability of the SHO engine

 

[shomethe$$$]

It used to be cool like 6-7 years ago for a swap but now they have better engines, unique yes but whatever you put in an E30 will be unique. Uniqueness is not always in the engine. An E30 with a SHO will be so heavy up front with that engine that it will turn worse than a truck. Reliability? you starve a SHO engine of oil or overheat it and that's it, no replacement parts, you will blow old cracked hoses weekly. Anyone one of those engines you mentioned have more potential than a SHO, you can probably do 400hp reliably in a SHO with serious add's on which means money and time.

Doesn't matter if you get the engine for free, I couldn't pay to have people take this engine from me, plus the amount of shop time, materials to adapt it you will spend will be twice as much as the engine's you and I mentioned. Its a huge mistake in 2016 to go with a SHO engine. Just prepare to go through **** with it and just forget add-on's, everything will have to be made custom.

 

[kbp810]

Don't really have any advise to offer on the swap, just looking forward to hearing what route you take and how it works out for you.

I'm an E30 fan myself; had a 325e with plans to do an I head swap and turbo, but kept getting sidetracked and ended up selling it. Still regret that move, even stock it was a fun little car to buzz around in (slow, but still fun).

 

[Off Road SHO]

The 3.2 came in the automatic cars and were driven more like grocery getters than Honda racers. The intake cams from a 3.0 give you 1/2 mm more lift but in my opinion not worth the trouble. The beauty of the SHO motor (IMHO) is its ability to have torque over a wide range AND a replacement is only 400.00 or less.

If you want to truly use a SHO motor AND you want some advice from me; keep it simple. Use a transmission that already bolts to the block, use a stock motor (3.2), don't go crazy with add-ons until after you drive it for a while. Most FrankenSHO projects never get completed because they start out with a simple plan to put an SHO motor in something else. But along the way, additions and power adder dreams creep in and before you know it, a simple idea becomes complicated and unwieldly. Pretty soon they just go out and buy a Mustang or Camaro.

Tom

 

[Hambler]

shomethe$$$: I appreciate your input, however the SHO engine is roughly the same weight as the M20 I will be pulling out of the my e30. From my experience, most engines don't run very well if you starve them of oil or overheat them, I don't think that's something specific to the SHO engine. The work to adapt the cavalier engine or the blacktop zetec will be similar to the SHO, and they simply do not have the potiential the SHO engine has.

kbp810: I have an '86 325es I picked up extremely cheap because it is all around a rough car, however it is from Texas so its pretty rust free. As you said, it's a ton of fun to buzz around in but it would def be more fun if it had more power and revved to 7500, not 4500 rpm. Since I bought it I've been having fun with aesthetic mod's to the car, but now its time for more power. I added a picture of the car to this post.

Tom: from reading your stuff on here, it looks like I want all the advice I can get from you. I 100% plan to keep the engine stock until I've been driving it for awhile, I'm not even sure if I want more than the stock power in the e30, plus I would like to keep it semi-reliable. I've actually convinced my school to pay me to work on this project this summer through a program we have, so I will be working on the car full time for the next ten weeks. I am ok with the thought that the car may not get done this summer, and may be off the road for awhile if I attempt a 6 speed swap. If it seems the 6 speed swap is not feasable, and I start wanting the car done, I will switch to a t5 at that point.

 

[luigisho]

I've actually convinced my school to pay me to work on this project this summer through a program we have, so I will be working on the car full time for the next ten weeks.

I love that part. This is a game changer as far as what may seem reasonable use of time. Most of us give advice through the lens of car projects done in the driveway or garage, between work and other life stuff.

 

[Hambler]

Yea it's a pretty amazing deal for me, they gave me an open floor space in an old industrial building, so I need to supply any shop tools and equipment I need. I also have a small prototyping budget, as well as access and free use of the CNC and manual mills/lathes, waterjet and other stuff I mentioned earlier.

 

[shomethe$$$]

shomethe$$$: I appreciate your input, however the SHO engine is roughly the same weight as the M20 I will be pulling out of the my e30. From my experience, most engines don't run very well if you starve them of oil or overheat them, I don't think that's something specific to the SHO engine. The work to adapt the cavalier engine or the blacktop zetec will be similar to the SHO, and they simply do not have the potiential the SHO engine has.

kbp810: I have an '86 325es I picked up extremely cheap because it is all around a rough car, however it is from Texas so its pretty rust free. As you said, it's a ton of fun to buzz around in but it would def be more fun if it had more power and revved to 7500, not 4500 rpm. Since I bought it I've been having fun with aesthetic mod's to the car, but now its time for more power. I added a picture of the car to this post.

Tom: from reading your stuff on here, it looks like I want all the advice I can get from you. I 100% plan to keep the engine stock until I've been driving it for awhile, I'm not even sure if I want more than the stock power in the e30, plus I would like to keep it semi-reliable. I've actually convinced my school to pay me to work on this project this summer through a program we have, so I will be working on the car full time for the next ten weeks. I am ok with the thought that the car may not get done this summer, and may be off the road for awhile if I attempt a 6 speed swap. If it seems the 6 speed swap is not feasable, and I start wanting the car done, I will switch to a t5 at that point.

No the SHO is 100 lbs heavier, you know what an extra 100 lbs extra on the front axle does to the handling of already very light car?

If your not gonna change your mind on the engine, then just put a good oil pressure gauge and an accurate temperature gauge, with stock gauges you will have no idea if you've blown a head gasket or loss of oil pressure.

As for the transmissions, the Mazda one will certainly need a rebuild, so expect to do that. You need a M5R1, no one one this board put one of these in because they are weak and shift like trucks because they are made for trucks and the shifter will end up where your ashtray would be.

Another option is Aerostar bell-housing with a T5 trans, you will still need an adapter, but far easier to make a trans adapter than an engine adapter. None of these transmission will shift for very long at 7k rpms. It maybe easier just to get the Canfield Industries adapter and stick a T5 behind it, Kennedy Engineered Products makes adapters for Porsche transmissions not T5's but I'm sure they could make you one. Then you still have to worry about the length of the input shaft and installing a pilot bearing. Only a cobra trans might work, that's not gonna be easy to find so expect to take a lot of measurements and taking transmission's apart to find the correct input shaft. Since this seems like a budget project I'll forget trying to adapt a T56, it can be done by re-drilling the Canfield adapter.

All this and you haven't even started on the exhaust, wiring, charging system, re-routing the cooling system for RWD, and possibly cutting the oil pan to clear the steering rack.

You can take all the advice from Tom, he's done it but he's missing a lot of details which will waste a lot of your time. I guarantee you will not want to keep a SHO engine stock for long, your go-kart car buddy in the next shop could walk the SHO in stock form. What you really need to do is make a list of what you want and what you can live without. What I see right now is a 220hp 450 lb SHO engine, may or may not have power steering. A trans that can only shift up to 5k with a shift lever in the dash. I'll assume your sticking with the BMW rear end? What ratio is it?

 

[Hambler]

I'd be interested in what you have, and where you got the weight of the M20. My understanding is they weigh about 400lbs as they sit in the car, so only 50 pounds lighter than the SHO, which I am okay with to double my horsepower.

I have not considered gauges yet, but I will likely go aftermarket.

It looks as if the Kennedy Engineered Products makes adapters for a transaxle such as a rear engined car would use, which I'm not interested in for obvious reasons.

As with any engine swap, especially if I take a transversely mounted engine and turn it longitudinally, I will have to deal with exhaust, wiring, charging, cooling and an oil pan. The SHO engine actually seems easier than many of the more modern engines I considered.

I'm interested as to why you think I would not want to keep the SHO stock for long? I am almost content with the M20 in the car, so double the horsepower should be more than enough for me. I already have cars that can set lap times/track times, I'm looking for something that I like and I think is fun in this build. I will likely have to upgrade the rear eventually as the stock limited slip will not hold up to the SHO's power for long if I want to have fun with the car.

 

[Off Road SHO]

I have SHO engines and T-5 with Canfield adaptor, and the Mazda tranny and an A4LD automatic on the shelves in my shop if you need any pics. And the SHO engine, fully dressed is 492 pounds. I have a couple of 3.2's, one with only 4800 miles and a 3.0 out of a special Ford vehicle with only 87 miles and fully polished intake, just like my buggy. I've got SHO ****.

Tom

 

[shomethe$$$]

I don't think you'll notice too much of a difference between 0-60 times of the stock SHO vs. a stock E30, not even .3 seconds, and 20-30 ft-lbs difference in torque, the E30 makes good torque so that's what you need to be looking at. After that the SHO motor should pull away from an E30. Horsepower has nothing to do with how much your diff can hold, its torque. High horsepower only reduces the longevity of the drivetrain, just worry about torque for now.

Like I said try to make a list of what you can live with, if you are okay with it, then start building.

 

[Hambler]

Tom, if it was easy for a you a side view pic of an SHO engine with something as a frame of reference as far as dimensions would be useful so I can start getting an idea of how it will fit in my engine bay, I appreciate the help.

shomethe$$$, I realize and stand corrected that it is torque, not power, that breaks rears. Even so, I don't have high confidence that the stock rear will hold up for very long. I appreciate your suggestions, and will consider them before I proceed.

 

[Off Road SHO]

On the old 3 series it was the diff mounts that were always cracking from the drivers always thinking they had bought a 5 series.

There is a thread on here with dimensions somewhere, I'll see if I can find it, it's 112 in the shade here.

EDIT: Here it is. http://www.shoforum.com/index.php?threads/engine-bay-dimensions.128566/

Tom

 

[Hambler]

I had found that thread at one point, so I'm sure I could find it again.... I've read so many threads over the past couple days I forgot about it.
That sounds brutal, it's a nice 72 degrees here.

 

[rubydist]

the Cididit adapter will allow you to mount any transmission that mounts to the small block Ford engine to the SHO motor. I thought they put 6 speed manuals in some of the Mustang Cobras of the mid-90s, but it might have started later. there are photos of the adapter around, so if you need to make a similar but different adapter to use a Ford/GM 6 speed, you can do that if you have machine shop access.

my recollection is similar to Tom's number above - 500 lbs for the SHO motor, almost as much as a 5.0 Ford.

gauges will be a trivial part of this project, so don't sweat that. Tom has a thread on here about how to wire a SHO motor to another vehicle, so you have all the information you need there.

the one thing you need to confirm is size - the SHO motor is pretty wide, and very tall. I looked very seriously at putting it in my RX7 and ended up not because it is so tall. also, look at where the front suspension/steering cross-member sits in the car and make sure that will work with the oil pan on the SHO motor, because there is no alternative pan available (the 3.0 and 3.2 pans are slightly different, but not much.)

good luck!

 

[luigisho]

Yeah I forget which project had the major fitment changes. Probably the SHO Probe or a Mazda? The fitment was a bear and there was a ton of cutting and I don't even know if that thing ever actually saw the road. Should still be archived on the forum.
Like Ruby said, both height --tall intake and deep oil pan--and width can be issues.