914-SHO Test Run #4 - interesting results!

[3d914]

Well it's been a productive weekend. I finished the valve adjustment, added the canister purge valve (thanks Maurice), replaced my BAP sensor for Rbruso's, and closed the circuit on the PSP switch.

Decided it was time for Test run #4. I didn't do a video since it sounds the same as test run #3. More later.

The good:

• No code 52/519 using either B9B1 or X2J
• No code 85/565 using B9B1 or X2J
• Found bad BAP connector socket - wasn't making contact.
• Tested Manifold pressure at FP Regulator hose
  • 17.5 in Hg at 1000rpm
  • 18.5 in Hg at 2000rpm
  • 19 in Hg at 3000rpm

The not so good:

• Still getting BAP code 22/126 for B9B1 or X2J
  • Vref test shows 5.12v
  • Map/BP test 1.33 for my BAP, 2.62 for Rbruso's BAP. Both apparently out of range 1.39 - 1.66v. For our altitude it should be around 1.4v
  • Check impedence on all three lines to PCM pins: Vref = 2.2ohms, Map Sig = 2.4ohms, Signal Rtn = 8ohms
• Still have valve noise on Cyl #3 intake at low rpm - same as on this video. I also adjusted both of these to .18mm & .15mm.
• The motor doesn't run smooth - in a mechanical way. I'm noticing vibration (high frequency, not violent shaking) with rpm increase. It just doesn't have that smooth hhmm to it. Keep in mind this is a used motor and I only worked on the top end.

I need to figure what direction to take next with the valves. Either there are valve seats that are loose, bent valves, possibly worn springs, or something else - but I need to figure out what's behind this.

Also need to look into the engine vibration. Maybe its just me. Glad to entertain thoughts or ideas on these.

 

[Shovert]

Do you need a bap sensor connector?Probably have one. But can source locally pretty cheap.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/d...67&ck=Search_pt218_1138867_1291&keyword=pt218
I am uncertain of advice on the bap voltage. I assume proper wires to the proper connections. Maurice
Edit Found this. Can you take the bap to someone with scope?
http://www.shoforum.com/showpost.php?p=1245069&postcount=12
Found used on alot of Ford products including Mustang like what I am use to.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/d...38867_1291&keyword=barometric+pressure+sensor
Reason I mention this I found on the Mustang v-8 forum a way of testing it.
http://sbftech.com/index.php?topic=19336.0
On vibration a thought. Maybe not same as SHO motor but my 2.3 turbo had a bad vibration [like a ignition miss] come to find out had bad injector. I keep unplugging them until the one unplugged made no diffence. Just thought I had to mention.

 

[rbruso]

A light rod knock can sound like it is coming from the top end. Not saying that is what is going on, but it is possible. Are you using a stethoscope to track the noise?

Right after the koeo test you can start a cylinder balance test for the injectors. Info here (you will only ger 10-60 of course): http://www.corral.net/tech/maintenance/eecivtest-balance.html

 

[rubydist]

if you only cleaned up the top end, and since the engine has been sitting for a while, it is likely that you have sticky rings on at least some of the pistons. that will cause piston slap until the engine warms up.

your choices are pull the heads, pull pistons and clean up/replace rings; or just add some AutoRx to the oil and hope it loosens them up over time.

 

[3d914]

Do you need a bap sensor connector?Probably have one. But can source locally pretty cheap.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/d...67&ck=Search_pt218_1138867_1291&keyword=pt218

Maurice, thanks - I'm not sure how you come up with some of these. Maybe I gotta quit using google and try another search engine. I fixed my connector for the moment, but I'll hang on to this and pick one up later.

Edit Found this. Can you take the bap to someone with scope?
http://www.shoforum.com/showpost.php?p=1245069&postcount=12

Don't know anyone with one. Even if the frequency is within spec the output voltage is registering below the expected range. That I was able to measure.

Found used on a lot of Ford products including Mustang like what I am use to.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/d...38867_1291&keyword=barometric+pressure+sensor

Not sure this is the same part. For the 95 SHO the Ford part number is E7EF9F479A1A. Saw some on Amazon & Ebay that appear to interchange with SMP AS1 MAP Sensor - but haven't verified that yet.

Reason I mention this I found on the Mustang v-8 forum a way of testing it.
http://sbftech.com/index.php?topic=19336.0

Good reference info. Thanks.

On vibration a thought. Maybe not same as SHO motor but my 2.3 turbo had a bad vibration [like a ignition miss] come to find out had bad injector. I keep unplugging them until the one unplugged made no diffence. Just thought I had to mention.

This doesn't appear to be that king of vibration. I have checked all plugs and they are all getting fuel (a little rich due to MAP), and the exhaust note is even as well. The vibration seems more mechanical. If I wasn't absolutely certain of my timing belt alignment - I would suspect that.

It's probably just me - off on another tangent.

 

[3d914]

A light rod knock can sound like it is coming from the top end. Not saying that is what is going on, but it is possible. Are you using a stethoscope to track the noise?

Right after the koeo test you can start a cylinder balance test for the injectors. Info here (you will only ger 10-60 of course): http://www.corral.net/tech/maintenance/eecivtest-balance.html

Rich, I was using a long screw driver against my ear. Noise was definitely coming from rear-left cylinder intake. Could hear it from both the intake & exhaust side, but intake was louder.

Thanks for the info on the test. I was reading something similar earlier & wondering if that would be a useful test. Definitely have to get the BAP corrected first though.

 

[3d914]

if you only cleaned up the top end, and since the engine has been sitting for a while, it is likely that you have sticky rings on at least some of the pistons. that will cause piston slap until the engine warms up.

your choices are pull the heads, pull pistons and clean up/replace rings; or just add some AutoRx to the oil and hope it loosens them up over time.

ruby, sounds reasonable except that this doesn't go away once the motors warmed up as one would expect. Even valve noise on a cold engine could be tolerated, but not once its reached normal operating temp. Also, wouldn't I expect some smoking with stuck rings?

I recall when we assembled the motor, we checked the main crank bushings, rod bushings, etc. I just can't remember what we did with the pistons. We may not have even pulled them, since we could check the rest from the pan side. IIRC the bushings all looked good as though someone had gone through the engine previously.

The heads I remember we had cleaned and magnafluxed. Not sure what else we did to them. I'm sure we didn't redo valves, springs or anything like that. Hence - my question about the valve seats in my other post.

 

[rubydist]

you may not see smoke from the stuck rings - the oil layer could be pretty thin and hard to recognize in the total exhaust volume.

anything is possible, but I have never seen a SHO motor with any kind of 'real' valve issues - no worn guides, no loose seat, no bent valves, etc.

after the heads were cleaned, did you lap the valves at all? were you careful to put all the valves back in the same spot?

 

[3d914]

after the heads were cleaned, did you lap the valves at all? were you careful to put all the valves back in the same spot?

I have no idea. I can't remember past having them cleaned and checked for cracks.

 

[rubydist]

if the valves didn't go back in the same spot, and if they didn't get lapped, then you could have a little noise if one of the valve stems still has some carbon buildup on it and it is now in a guide that sticks down into the passage a little more.

I would definitely pull the valve covers and cams and buckets, and make sure all the valve keepers are in place correctly.

 

[3d914]

if the valves didn't go back in the same spot, and if they didn't get lapped, then you could have a little noise if one of the valve stems still has some carbon buildup on it and it is now in a guide that sticks down into the passage a little more.

I would definitely pull the valve covers and cams and buckets, and make sure all the valve keepers are in place correctly.

I agree an inspection is needed at the very least. Found the list of work done on the engine from an earlier post (#69).

•Cleaned and painted the oil pan
•Cleaned and painted the block
•Cleaned the heads and valve covers
•Cleaned and painted the valve covers
•Modified and welded the intake manifold
•Cleaned and painted the intake manifold
•Cleaned and painted the intake runners
•Had the heads professionally cleaned and decked
•Replaced numerous freeze block plugs

 

[rubydist]

I would lap the valves while you have it almost apart, so you know that they seat properly.

 

[3d914]

Well started out to accomplish the following before doing the cylinder balance test - got some interesting results though.

• Run engine at normal operating temp & give PCM a chance to learn
• Found some Rislone engine treatment to help loosen potential stuck piston ring. No luck yet - still got valve noise.
• Check condition of plugs after engine run (and cool down)

I've noticed a couple of new problems.

1. There appears to be an oil leak from the head out of a couple of the threaded mounting holes at the forward part of the head near cyl. 4 (see pic & puddle of oil)
2. After I put in the Rislone and also added some SeeFoam to the intake, I started getting black oil-like substance out of the Y-pipe. This can't be good. (see pic below)
3. I then pulled the plugs after everyhing cooled down and they all still look like its running rich (see pic below).

Puddle of oil on PS bracket. Oil is not coming from valve cover. It appears to be dripping from the threads where my wire support is attached.

Exhaust ****** at Y-pipe started dripping this oil-like substance. Definitely an indicator that somethings getting paste the valves.

Pulled the plugs and they all look like the No.3 plug & running rich. Some of that wet may be from the seafoam - as I may not have run it long enough to clear it all out.

 

[Phoenix]

All my ground up restoration's first starts were kinda rough , but runs smoother and smoother when you let it settle for some time 20-30mins.

I dont know if its the case with yours , and I donno how much time you let it running either..

Just a thought.

 

[3d914]

All my ground up restoration's first starts were kinda rough , but runs smoother and smoother when you let it settle for some time 20-30mins.

I dont know if its the case with yours , and I donno how much time you let it running either..

Just a thought.

Phoenix, yes the motor smooths out once it warms up to normal temp (about 15-20 mins), but all these new problems came later after I let it cool down a little. No fans on radiator so I have to put an external fan in front to help cool.

 

[rubydist]

the black goop from the y-pipe suggests to me that the stuff you put in is starting to loosen up the carbon buildup on the rings, and some of that crap is getting blown out the exhaust valves. you will need to run it for a while (20+ hours total) to know if that will make it ok or if it needs torn down again.

 

[3d914]

Well I ran it more today -but it not's getting any better. In fact it sounds worse that it did before. Not valve noise - that's the same. This is more like rod noise. Decided not to run it any more and just tear it down. I'll start a posting to track my findings. I'm sure I'll need insight from you guys as I dig deeper.

Thanks again.