60k Answer needed

[DougLee25]

I do 60k maintenances on the side for local people. This one guy is completely adament about doing EVERYTHING on this car for the 60k. A little background first... He bought the car from a man who did all the maintenance as scheduled on it at 58k and currently it has 75k on the odometer. He wants to do the plugs, wires, etc on the upper end, but he also wants to disassemble the intake and put new gaskets on it. I feel that a motor with 75k there isn't going to be much of a point. Sorta like it's not broke, so don't fix it kinda attitude. He also wants to replace the knock sensor as well. These parts usually don't go bad. I am just not seeing the point.

Since he's paying me, I'll do whatever he wants, but do you all agree with me? Should I put on the intake gasket set and the knock sensor while I'm in there, or do you think I shouldn't even bother?

Doug

 

[DubbaDooz]

Hah, if I was being paid, i'd just nod, smile, do whatever he wants, and make sure he tells his friends! wink

 

[projectSHO89]

Do whatever he asks, it's his money.

Otherwise, send him to St Louis, I'll do the work in exchange for his money....

Steve

 

[rangerj]

Doug,

The following is going to be food for thought.

When you take money to do mechanical work, that makes you a "professional" as a matter of law. All 50 States have adopted the Uniform Commercial Code, so in general this principle will apply to you. It holds you to a higher standard of ethics and legal liability.

You have an obligation to tell the "customer", as the "professional", that some or all of the work that he wants done is not necessary.

You also have an obligation to recommend that only the necessary work be done, and only the necessary parts be replaced.

I would make a written list of what the customer wants done, and a written list of what you, in your professional opinion, does not need to be done.

You can agree to leave some things open, to be determined once you get inside and can make a judgement. I would call the customer and discuss these items before doing the work. And again, get the customers approval.

Carefully go over the lists, including the cost, with the customer, and get his signature for what he wants done. Then do what he wants and bill him for it, as agreed ahead of time. The customer should not be surprised at what it costs. In fact most States require this as a matter of law.

IMHO this is a customer I would run from, not walk, but run. Every time there is a problem with the car he is going to be in your face, after all YOU fixed "everthing"!

You may get lucky, and this could be the greatest customer you ever had, but don't count on it. oh_my

CYA and get everything in writing. rangerj thumbs_u

 

[luigisho]

Good post rangerj. I agree with the premise that you should disclose what you feel is necessary and what is not, and after that the customer makes an 'informed decision'. Take his money with a smile and a clear conscience.

 

[DougLee25]

I completely agree with both of your statments of advising him what should and should not be done. This is also exactly what I did on the phone. He already purchased all the parts for the ENTIRE 60k. I would just be putting them on. I guess he just doesn't want to deal with it for a while, and thus why he wants to replace everything at once. Like I said though, I have yet to fully disassemble an intake because there is no reason to unless it's completely gummed up, or the gaskets are leaking. I've seen 200k SHO's with no problems at all. Hence why I feel it's a waste of time and money.

Doug

 

[luigisho]

I agree Doug. Unless there is a leak or you plan on a good intake cleaning I wouldn't take it apart just for fun either. I guess some people want a one time full deal to feel secure. Plus not you gotta pull the fuel rail and injectors out to get to the knock sensor. Don't tell him about the injector o-rings and seals to the head!

 

[pjtoledo]

rangerj:
Doug,

,,,,,,,,,,.

You have an obligation to tell the "customer", as the "professional", that some or all of the work that he wants done is not necessary.

You also have an obligation to recommend that only the necessary work be done, and only the necessary parts be replaced.


,,,,,,IMHO this is a customer I would run from, not walk, but run. Every time there is a problem with the car he is going to be in your face, after all YOU fixed "everthing"! ,,,,,,,,

thumbs_u

like Rangerj said..

I'm in the service business, (not cars) and there are some situations I would rather not deal with. Let the competition have this one.

Perry Toledo,Ohio

 

[oconnord]

Doug: this is an interesting post. I guess I am the guy you are referring to here, but clearly you have missed a couple of things. The car I bought at 58K has never had any 60k service, only a failed CPS replaced. Why would anyone do a 60K 17K after it was done?

I posted earlier looking for help in doing this procedure. You responded that you would help because you lived nearby. Someone was nice enough to forward a list of 60K parts and their cheapest sources.

Thinking that I had somebody who would help me if I got stuck, I purchased all of the parts on this list. The knock sensor and throttle sensor were on the list as optional and they were only a few dollars, so I bought these also. I did not know that they are parts that don't fail, only figured that if I am pulling all this off, I might as well change them. I scanned posts and learned that you should clean out the intake if doing a complete 60K.

We have talked several times, and you have never (until yesterday)stated clearly that you would be doing this work entirely yourself for profit. I got the impression that you were willing to help out a fellow SHO owner, and I would make it worth your while for you pointers and help.

I guess this is a little misunderstanding about your situation. If you are really in the business, and are collecting +/- 50/hr for labor with no overhead or taxes, you need to back up your work. I mean how many 60k's have you done? You have already said that you have not disassembled a manifold or done a valve lash, but you want $250 for labor to replace the plugs wires and valve cover gaskets which I have already purchased.

I am really looking to either have somebody who can do the complete service, including lash and cleaning, or if I attempt it myself, some help if I encounter some problems. I need the car to get to work and I am not looking to give money away for anything that isn't needed, I just ordered the parts on the list I was forwarded. shrug

 

[DougLee25]

Dan, I'm not in the "SHO business" so to speak. Like I said, I do it on the side for fellow people that own SHO's. I didn't misunderstand the situation with the previous owner. I understood that it was now due for it's 60k at 75k. If you call around your area and tell your local shop exactly what I was going to do, and compare their price to mine, you will soon see that my price is completely within reason. Not to mention that for every customer that I've done work for, I thoroughly explain the process, show them personally how meticulous I am during the entire work, and also take pictures. Try finding that at a local shop. I did tell you that I feel the manifold doesn't need to be taken apart, but if you bought the parts, well then it's at your discretion. I have cleaned the runners out before, but felt that there was no need to disassemble the entire intake because they were fairly clean to begin with. And yes, you are correct, I never did the valve lash either, because every car I've worked on has sub 100k on the odometer and the owners opted not to do it. It's at their personal discretion to let the valve lash go to a later date. Hence why I never have needed to do one. Some will disagree, some may not. I have seen multiple motors at 175k that need maybe one or two shims. Like I said, just my opinion. I have done tons of work for fellow SHO owners, and many will swear by it. I am not here to make enemies, I am here to help. I was just concerned that I felt the extra time invested in doing the intake and knock sensor were just that, extra time that wasn't needed on a vehicle with such low miles. You make the call.

Doug

<small>[ March 09, 2003, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: DougLee25 ]</small>

 

[oconnord]

Thanks Doug:
I just got the impression from your post and the replies that I was some idiot. I just want the car to be in a state of no worries for another 60k. The parts online were reasonable so I bought them all; I don't know enough to say which items are needed and which are not. If I was taking the manifold off I would probably clean it out. That's just me. Even if though the milage is low, it is still a 13 year old car. Thanks, Dan

 

[RStalveyARFF]

oconnord:
I just want the car to be in a state of no worries for another 60k.

That's something everyone wants Dan!!!! thumbs_u

 

[rangerj]

Dan,

There is no surefire way to have a trouble free X number of miles, or X time period in any car.

The best way to come close to Nervana, is to do the scheduled maintenance on time, or have it done by an honest competent mechanic.

A good mechanic will look over the vehicle, while doing one thing, say an oil change, for any signs of trouble and recommend any necessary additional work, for example a worn belt replacement.

Your shotgun approach does not make sense, and may not get you where you want to go (pun intended).

As a suggestion, why don't you and Doug get together and make an assessment of you SHO, and then devise a plan to replace what needs to be replaced or serviced now, and what you will replace or service on a schedule, or when a problem arises.

I understand that you would prefer that no problems arise, but that is not always possible. Thats life! rangerj

 

[oconnord]

I know there is no way to be sure you won't have problems but at this time my car is in great condition and runs like a champ. The only thing it needs is the scheduled 60K service. What is the Shotgun approach you are referring to?

Are you guys saying that parts of the 60K, like valve lash, are a waste of time and money? That's news to me. I have read dozens of posts on this forum about 60K services and most seem to feel that the valve adjustment is needed at 60K. So what if I opt to clean the manifold: many people do this while they are in there.

I have purchased the parts from a list sent to me by Scott Patt. Educate me on what parts I should return. I have a CPS , water pump, timing belt, acc. belts, plug, wires, and gaskets - plus the knock sensor and throttle sensor. I just changed the 02 sensors, fuel filter and T-stat and temp guage sensor. Thanks for the advice.

 

[luigisho]

Dan, you're not out of line with almost all of what you are looking at. Scott's list is very comprehensive.
I think the only things that are disputable are the knock sensor and the manifold gaskets. Not the manifold to head gaskets just the gaskets for the runners.

Not everyone does a thorough intake manifold cleaning with a 60k unless they do it themselves, as it is very time consuming to pay someone to do it.

OTOH I bet when Scotty does someone's car that is probably part of his service, as he is more comprehensive/thorough than most!

 

[DougLee25]

I think the only things that are disputable are the knock sensor and the manifold gaskets. Not the manifold to head gaskets just the gaskets for the runners.

If you look back to the first post, you will see that this was my first and only concern. I believe the whole topic was blown out of proportion. Nevertheless Dan, call me if you'd like my assistance, otherwise, I'm sorry I couldn't be of help to you. I'll still provide you with any phone or email information in order that you complete your 60k successfully. thumbs_u

Doug

<small>[ March 10, 2003, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: DougLee25 ]</small>

 

[Bizzy]

I just did my valve lash 2.5 weeks ago on my 73k mile 94. I found most valves to be within the spec but I wanted to tighten up what I could. I feel better knowing the measurements in there even though it "really didn't need it" Though I did find a few shims with some slight wear, but they were easily replaced. Some very very light middle of the lobe wear, but again nothing that i haven't seen 20 times in pics here on the forum. Hopefully my oil selection and filter choices will be better than the previous owner's 5k miles on Quaker State oil, maintence. Please no BS about synthetic, cause there is no way the little wear I see in the middle of the lobe was caused by 4k on synthetic when I changed it over. seen this before All in all doing the valve lash at 60k or there abouts is more for peace of mind than anything else. After it is done you know the state of the engine and the condition of the shims. Any shim with any kind of wear should be replaced or flipped, and in my book that alone is worth at least checking the valve lash at 60k ish.

 

[sdpatt]

The list of parts and their sources that I have posted is just that: a list of parts and their sources. I have made notations in previous posts that the list does not suggest that all of these parts are associated with the preventative 60K/100K services. They are just the sources that I, and others, have found with the best prices.

I suggest, and actually recommend, that you do not replace all of the parts on the list for the sake of preventative maintenance. The only required 60K parts and services are the valve gapping, spark plugs, timing belt and accessory belts. Components such as the CID sensor, knock sensor, ECT sensor, thermostat, etc. are listed just for their part number and source if and when they fail. They are not wear items and may last the life of the car.

Some of the parts should only be replaced because their failure would strand the car and they have been found to have a finite lifetime (CPS). Others are replaced because their access is simple during the major service and the cost is small (front main seal) or because there are too many years or miles on the existing parts or they are already at the end of their lifetimes (valve cover gaskets, plug wires, water pump).

It is the determination of an experienced service technician (or the SHO community) that these parts are or are not to be replaced at a certain mileage increment. Check the information I discussed with this post.

As a matter of prudence, I recommend that you do not disassemble the intake manifold just to replace the gaskets. They are fine until you break their seal. The intake-to-head gaskets can be bought separately and should be replaced if the black finish is chipping off. The valve cover and plug well seal set should be planned for replacement if they are over 120,000 miles old or are leaking oil.

You get the point. Save the spares that you have for the tile when you really need them. Replace the important parts and those that are specified for the preventative services.

Drive safely.

<small>[ March 10, 2003, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: sdpatt ]</small>