2010-12 Green Oak ECU vs 13+ TC-1797 (Tricore) ECU Differences and Hardware Limitations

[Sleeper.Solutions86]

Lately there’s been a misconception between reality and facts on the hardware limitations between the 2 generations of Ecoboost ECUs. That has lend members to bashing tuners and companies that have been a stepping stone in the industry helping it get to where it is today. So I hope with this video to clear up that there are not tuner skill issues or lack of intelligence in tuning these cars. It’s a lack of what the hardware is capable of doing and allowing you to adjust. The parameters available for adjustment are the same whether it’s HP or SCT.

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[mattr66usa]

802SHO will never acknowledge this because of the make-believe world he is living in.

 

[kryptto]

well done video and learned more about those earlier PCMs and not my more modern '14 where I had access to more.

closing my part of this out so it doesn’t keep looping and just defending my early posts though they were only a couple.
the disagreement was never really “meth works” vs “meth doesn’t work.” it was how meth was being described to the general audience.
early on it came across as “meth is basically cooling and the pcm handles it,” which is what a lot of people (including me) reacted to. meth is fuel, and once you’re flowing meaningful amounts, it does change the fueling and timing picture whether people like it or not.
after the later explanations, the actual position is clearer:

- on early sho pcms there are real hardware/strategy limits
- both hp and sct are constrained by that, not just tuner choice
- for conservative street setups, meth is intentionally kept small and used mainly for octane/cooling
- once mbt is reached and airflow is the limit (stock turbos esp), more meth doesn’t add power
that’s a tuning choice, not a physics argument
where the disconnect happened is those limits getting presented as a general truth instead of a use-case decision. that’s why people like 802 pushed back so hard.

both things can be true:
- conservative meth strategies make sense for most street cars
- higher-flow meth or more capable pcms absolutely require intentional tuning

i think that distinction is important for people reading this later, especially anyone not on stock-ish setups. that’s all i wanted to clarify. i’m done here.

 

[bpd1151]

@Sleeper.Solutions86

Thank you for posting. Interesting video for sure. Certainly dumbs it down for folks like me.

I did pass the video along to my own builder for future reference for whenever my car gets completed.

I wonder what would all be involved in swapping out the older Green Oak ECM, for a more capable Tri-Core ECM?

I'll have to ask my builder about that as well. Although I hesitate to throw any more at him, but it may be necessary to consider undertaking that aspect it seems.

Again, thank you.

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[mattr66usa]

@Sleeper.Solutions86

Thank you for posting. Interesting video for sure. Certainly dumbs it down for folks like me.

I did pass the video along to my own builder for future reference for whenever my car gets completed.

I wonder what would all be involved in swapping out the older Green Oak ECM, for a more capable Tri-Core ECM?

I'll have to ask my builder about that as well. Although I hesitate to throw any more at him, but it may be necessary to consider undertaking that aspect it seems.

Again, thank you.

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I think there was a period of 2 years or so where the 13+ sho had the same coils as the 10-12 cars if I remember correctly. These would be more compatible, maybe even down to the harness compared to the later coil setups.

 

[mattr66usa]

well done video and learned more about those earlier PCMs and not my more modern '14 where I had access to more.

closing my part of this out so it doesn’t keep looping and just defending my early posts though they were only a couple.
the disagreement was never really “meth works” vs “meth doesn’t work.” it was how meth was being described to the general audience.
early on it came across as “meth is basically cooling and the pcm handles it,” which is what a lot of people (including me) reacted to. meth is fuel, and once you’re flowing meaningful amounts, it does change the fueling and timing picture whether people like it or not.
after the later explanations, the actual position is clearer:

- on early sho pcms there are real hardware/strategy limits
- both hp and sct are constrained by that, not just tuner choice
- for conservative street setups, meth is intentionally kept small and used mainly for octane/cooling
- once mbt is reached and airflow is the limit (stock turbos esp), more meth doesn’t add power
that’s a tuning choice, not a physics argument
where the disconnect happened is those limits getting presented as a general truth instead of a use-case decision. that’s why people like 802 pushed back so hard.

both things can be true:
- conservative meth strategies make sense for most street cars
- higher-flow meth or more capable pcms absolutely require intentional tuning

i think that distinction is important for people reading this later, especially anyone not on stock-ish setups. that’s all i wanted to clarify. i’m done here.

I think this thread mostly reinforces the reason I told 802SHO that I didn't feel comfortable tuning his setup with larger aftermarket injectors and the xdi-60 pump. It was seen as a weakness of me and my chosen tuning platform by him and not the fact that I just don't have the way to command the PCM to act properly.

The funny thing is that I am literally the one that made the first pump one work properly (with full capacity) on the SHO. I am not exaggerating when I say that I'm the one that figured out the MSV delay parameter and the reason the pumps lose volume at high rpm. I spent a week with an oscilloscope and current probes on the dyno and going through the parameters with HP tuners trying to figure out why the fuel volume was disappearing above 5000 rpms. It was in the lower-level German language part of the calibration since the PCM was delivered to Ford with a Bosch pump so ford never needed to touch that part of the calibration (the MSV delay was marked read-only in the calibration documentation). Now that we are using pumps that came from GM applications, they aren't using Bosch delivery valves and have more internal mass and take longer to respond and thus the reason for the mis-timing at high rpm. These valves have to be precisely timed to follow the camshaft that drives them since they aren't a simple pressure regulator like most people expect on fuel systems. The Amperage setting is less critical on the 10-12 PCMS because they use an inferred current loop and not a voltage setting like the 13+. Since the valve has a lower resistance on the aftermarket pumps, the current automatically goes higher and doesn't need the adjustment like the later PCMs that are voltage-based.

Now that is all in the open, we can see who is listening to facts (thank you to those who are) and those who will still choose to stay living in fantasy land.

 

[mattr66usa]

Oh and to prove that I'm not trying to be some gatekeeper as 802 accuses me of, here is my conversation with the developer at HP Tuners trying to get the stuff added.

 

[Sleeper.Solutions86]

Oh and to prove that I'm not trying to be some gatekeeper as 802 accuses me of, here is my conversation with the developer at HP Tuners trying to get the stuff added.
View attachment 96377

He is the man. If anyone could make it happen it’ll be him.


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[DadMobile]

Lately there’s been a misconception between reality and facts on the hardware limitations between the 2 generations of Ecoboost ECUs. That has lend members to bashing tuners and companies that have been a stepping stone in the industry helping it get to where it is today. So I hope with this video to clear up that there are not tuner skill issues or lack of intelligence in tuning these cars. It’s a lack of what the hardware is capable of doing and allowing you to adjust. The parameters available for adjustment are the same whether it’s HP or SCT.

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Great video by a real human too!

 

[Sleeper.Solutions86]

Great video by a real human too!

Thanks man! I can safely assume that the rest why we haven’t heard anything from 802 is because there’s no way for AI to tell him how to respond to my video.


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[kryptto]

Thanks man! I can safely assume that the rest why we haven’t heard anything from 802 is because there’s no way for AI to tell him how to respond to my video.


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i’m not here to turn this into a fight or take shots at anyone. the video was posted, people watched it, and the technical points are there to stand on their own.

802 doesn’t owe anyone an immediate response, and this doesn’t need to turn into a personal back-and-forth. if there’s something technical to discuss, great — let’s keep it there. otherwise, i’d prefer we don’t turn this into a mud-slinging thread. thank for showing the limitations of the PCM on that year/s. if you wish to cheapen your work, poke and start a fight. lets not.

 

[Sleeper.Solutions86]

i’m not here to turn this into a fight or take shots at anyone. the video was posted, people watched it, and the technical points are there to stand on their own.

802 doesn’t owe anyone an immediate response, and this doesn’t need to turn into a personal back-and-forth. if there’s something technical to discuss, great — let’s keep it there. otherwise, i’d prefer we don’t turn this into a mud-slinging thread. thank for showing the limitations of the PCM on that year/s. if you wish to cheapen your work, poke and start a fight. lets not.

You are right he doesn’t owe anyone a response. But it would’ve been par for the course at this point.


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[DadMobile]

i’m not here to turn this into a fight or take shots at anyone. the video was posted, people watched it, and the technical points are there to stand on their own.

802 doesn’t owe anyone an immediate response, and this doesn’t need to turn into a personal back-and-forth. if there’s something technical to discuss, great — let’s keep it there. otherwise, i’d prefer we don’t turn this into a mud-slinging thread. thank for showing the limitations of the PCM on that year/s. if you wish to cheapen your work, poke and start a fight. lets not.

He just said what we’re all thinking.

 

[bpd1151]

i’m not here to turn this into a fight or take shots at anyone. the video was posted, people watched it, and the technical points are there to stand on their own.

802 doesn’t owe anyone an immediate response, and this doesn’t need to turn into a personal back-and-forth. if there’s something technical to discuss, great — let’s keep it there. otherwise, i’d prefer we don’t turn this into a mud-slinging thread. thank for showing the limitations of the PCM on that year/s. if you wish to cheapen your work, poke and start a fight. lets not.

Completely agree .

My post was simply what it was/is.... a thank you for the video itself. Nothing more.

I have, and will continue to be neutral and will NOT immerse myself into the underlying debate that has ensued elsewhere.

I for one have an extremely limited understanding of the technical aspects at hand, and am unable to contribute on a scale being discussed.

I believe firmly that BOTH have made contributions to the platform as a whole and BOTH will continue doing so moving forward.

Continued happy SHO motoring to all. Thankful to still have people be so enthusiastic about the platform as a whole.

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