11 second SHO.

[HotRodKid]

i think im going to have to head over to jim oddy w/ the spare head i have and see what the legend can do for me ...

 

[sho_sc]

... and (obviously) a custom intake to go with the carb, which has an air scoop, so there's some intake pressurization at speed ... and did you read the part about a 10,000 RPM redline? If you can keep the torque constant (quite tough ...), HP increases ~1:1 with RPM. IOW, double the RPM, and with the same torque, you can double the HP.

That's why TQ is such an important number, it tells you how much power you get per cycle. Double the number of cycles, each with the same TQ, and you get double the amount of power.

http://www.shotimes.com/php-bin/mod...le=article&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0&sid=21

Using 10,000 RPM and 500 HP, he needs to make 263 ft.lb. at 10,000 RPM. That's a lofty goal, of course, for a 3.0L (remember the ram air pressurization though ...) ... and assuming a flat torque curve (obviously not the case), here's his dyno curve ..

RPM HP TQ
1,000 50 263
2,000 100 263
3,000 150 263
4,000 200 263
5,000 250 263
6,000 300 263
7,000 350 263
8,000 400 263
9,000 450 263
10,000 500 263

FWIW, the 2003 SHO Shop catalog shows a Stage IV 3.0L at 216 WTQ @ ~6,000 PRM. 216 / 0.82 = 263 FWTQ which is the chart above.... So if that torque could be maintained to 10,000 RPM (did I say ram-air pressurization and custom manifold?), then you have your 500 HP number.

This just goes to show what a meaningless number HP is ... TQ is where it's at, and what you can feel.

A couple things that I have a hard time with ... 1) I, like some others, believe that the wieght of the valve components is the actually limiting factor of the RPM of our engines. While you can shorten the stroke and get the piston speed so it will take 10K, I'm not sure what you can do the bucket/shim/spring/valve weight to support that RPM. 2) yes, at 200 mph you can see about 1 psi of boost, my Hayabusa sees 0.9 psi at 200 mph .. that's all relative to elevation anyway. It ain't going to give you the need TQ at high RPM to achieve 500 HP from a 3.0L N/A engine.

Now if it was say 400 or even 425 Bhp .. that would be more believable ... I can see 225 TQ @ 9500 ....

One of the reasons that particular vehicle is acheiving those speeds is it's coeffiecent .. 0.18 is mighty slick through the air ....

 

[SHOMurph]

I've spent some time on the track with tracer and the builders of their motors, the heads have over 40 straight hrs of work on them, custum ground cams forged crank and pistons and they feel the these motors have never seen the real power that they are capable of.

Ernie

I agree.

The power just keeps going up if we can just keep tuning/fuel proper. I wonder if that is why they switched to a carb? maybe?

I've never heard of anyone (F/I guys) blowing head gaskets either. I know two SHOs that are seeing over 20 psi of boost with no problems. One did blow his motor due to crappy Denso plugs (never never use them!) But other than that the motor always seems like it wants more.


Hope to see you at the Texas Mile Ernie!

 

[SHO NUT]

I'd love to talk to the guy that built the motor...

especially to see what they did to the heads. I think thats the big part of that puppy keeping its torque at 10k.

Also it would great if someone someday had the coin to put a 3L on a engine dyno and run it up to 10k to see what the stock numbers would read.

I know on my dynos my numbers keep going up until I shut it down at 7k.

I've always wondered how far these motors could take it and what rpm/numbers would be.

The intake is probably the cork in a 'normal' SHO engine at 10K. Once you remove the divider between the ports, and run a single runner for each cylinder, to a custom plenum, then the intake should be less of a restriction. This is what Todd (TCE) did with his car, but without the de-stroking etc. required for high RPM. Don't complain about a loss of low end torque though

 

[SHOMurph]

Don't complain about a loss of low end torque though

Thats what nitrous is for!!!

sooo whats under the hood now on your blue car? Inquiring minds what to know!

 

[somedude_001]

Thats what nitrous is for!!!

sooo whats under the hood now on your blue car? Inquiring minds what to know!

no2 is good stuff

and +1 to the second comment

i'm still running the plat plugs that 1slickred89 reccomended to me. I love them to death. I don't have to change them all the time and they don't foul out when you accdently load the wrong maf on the tweecer and make a giant flame thrower.

I too believe that we have only scratched the surface of what these engines are capable of. I want bigger cams but nobody seems to have interest in making them.

 

[SHO NUT]

Thats what nitrous is for!!!

sooo whats under the hood now on your blue car? Inquiring minds what to know!

Been too busy to work on it, so nothing much new ...

 

[SHO NUT]

I too believe that we have only scratched the surface of what these engines are capable of. I want bigger cams but nobody seems to have interest in making them.

Our +40's are what at least one salt flats streamliner is running with our ultra-high compistons, and those cams are pretty 'big' when you actually measure them up.

Going any bigger means grinding right down to the shaft of the cam and/or welding on more material to the lobe (not fun).

 

[SHO NUT]

I know on my dynos my numbers keep going up until I shut it down at 7k.

I've always wondered how far these motors could take it and what rpm/numbers would be.

You need more boost.

When I first built my blower car, the HP was a straight line, and the TQ was flat from 5K-8K. This means there were no intake (airflow) restrictions - I just need more RPM and more boost to make more power.


http://www.shonutperformance.com/Runs.pdf

As I increased the boost, my mid-range TQ went up, but not so much for the high RPM TQ, telling me that my intake was becoming a cork.




If you compare both charts at 8K RPM, I'm making 285-300 ft.lb. at the wheels, regardless of the boost level. Compare 6500, though, and that's where the big jump in TQ comes, from the higher boost level, when the intake is not yet a WHP restriction. If I could have held the 350 WTQ to 8K RPM, that would have been 530+ WHP ... so I need an even higher exponential boost increase at 8K RPM to do that with the existing intake.

 

[somedude_001]

how about i shell out the 1200-1300 for new cams? and then get new pistons with shiny dishes to work with the high lift. I know the buckets have to be modified and the head will also require some work. but come next year this is a investment I may be willing to make for my other project.

1300 for cams
700 pistons
1000 valves, springs, buckets
*** heavy port job

I will be working 2 jobs again for this damn car. I don't understand my obsession with this car.

 

[somedude_001]

on the second graph did you run out of injector at 7K?

 

[SHOMurph]

You need more boost.

When I first built my blower car, the HP was a straight line, and the TQ was flat from 5K-8K. This means there were no intake (airflow) restrictions - I just need more RPM and more boost to make more power.

As I increased the boost, my mid-range TQ went up, but not so much for the high RPM TQ, telling me that my intake was becoming a cork.

If you compare both charts at 8K RPM, I'm making 285-300 ft.lb. at the wheels, regardless of the boost level. Compare 6500, though, and that's where the big jump in TQ comes, from the higher boost level, when the intake is not yet a WHP restriction. If I could have held the 350 WTQ to 8K RPM, that would have been 530+ WHP ... so I need an even higher exponential boost increase at 8K RPM to do that with the existing intake.

Tony's machine shop took a look at the heads/intake. His thoughts are that the intake isn't the restriction its the heads. The ports on the intake manifold are bigger than the intake ports on the heads.

Comparing my stock 3.0L vs my now 3.2L w/flow bench heads my hp went up some but my torque flew up more than 50lbs!


ahhh only thing that I don't have is that famous T-trim w/small pulley. I can't justify swapping when my S-trim is still working great. I'd rather not go over 15psi but I want to get the 15psi to the ground asap. Of course with ported runners/heads its all relative.

 

[HotRodKid]

As I increased the boost, my mid-range TQ went up, but not so much for the high RPM TQ, telling me that my intake was becoming a cork.
.... so I need an even higher exponential boost increase at 8K RPM to do that with the existing intake.

omg, the intake was designed by YAMAHA .... do you know what that means ?

YOUR NOT ALLOWED TO CHANGE IT BECAUSE ITS MORE GODLY THEN CHUCK NORRIS !!!!!

its a dual plane intake so it makes power everywhere and your doomed to failure if you try to make a new intake that makes more PEAK power at ANY RPM

.... doing so would be just as bad as powdercoating your iol pan, if yamaha wanted the oil pans painted they would have done it THEMSELVES, they didnt so you shouldnt either

/ sho-clueless rant

somewhere lurking around here is the start of a sheetmetal sho intake .... hmmmm.... where ...did .... i ... put ... that **sifts thru stack of papers and dirty clothes***

 

[somedude_001]

omg, the intake was designed by YAMAHA .... do you know what that means ?

YOUR NOT ALLOWED TO CHANGE IT BECAUSE ITS MORE GODLY THEN CHUCK NORRIS !!!!!

its a dual plane intake so it makes power everywhere and your doomed to failure if you try to make a new intake that makes more PEAK power at ANY RPM

.... doing so would be just as bad as powdercoating your iol pan, if yamaha wanted the oil pans painted they would have done it THEMSELVES, they didnt so you shouldnt either

/ sho-clueless rant

somewhere lurking around here is the start of a sheetmetal sho intake .... hmmmm.... where ...did .... i ... put ... that **sifts thru stack of papers and dirty clothes***

WTF? less drugs mabye, or mabye more?

shonut is no fool. neither is yamahasho

 

[SHO NUT]

omg, the intake was designed by YAMAHA .... do you know what that means ?

YOUR NOT ALLOWED TO CHANGE IT BECAUSE ITS MORE GODLY THEN CHUCK NORRIS !!!!!

its a dual plane intake so it makes power everywhere and your doomed to failure if you try to make a new intake that makes more PEAK power at ANY RPM

I know you are joking ... but in all seriousness, the stock intake works (has a torque peak) at 3000 RPM on the long primary runners, and again at 5000 RPM (stock) to 6000 RPM (modified) on the short runners. If you want to go above that, the resonances just don't work at high RPM's, i.e. the runners are not tuned for those RPM's, never mind the flow issues. So to create a 10,000 RPM motor, a whole new sheet of paper needs to be used for the intake, and the long skinny runners just are not part of it ... so it won't look like an SHO that we all know and love.

 

[SHO NUT]

on the second graph did you run out of injector at 7K?

We were running out of a lot of fuel-related things at that point. We've since fixed most of them (our fuel system ...), but haven't had a chance to re-dyno.

 

[SHO NUT]

how about i shell out the 1200-1300 for new cams? and then get new pistons with shiny dishes to work with the high lift. I know the buckets have to be modified and the head will also require some work. but come next year this is a investment I may be willing to make for my other project.

1300 for cams
700 pistons
1000 valves, springs, buckets
*** heavy port job

I will be working 2 jobs again for this damn car. I don't understand my obsession with this car.

Well, we can do the cams and pistons at least!

 

[somedude_001]

I know you are joking ... but in all seriousness, the stock intake works (has a torque peak) at 3000 RPM on the long primary runners, and again at 5000 RPM (stock) to 6000 RPM (modified) on the short runners. If you want to go above that, the resonances just don't work at high RPM's, i.e. the runners are not tuned for those RPM's, never mind the flow issues. So to create a 10,000 RPM motor, a whole new sheet of paper needs to be used for the intake, and the long skinny runners just are not part of it ... so it won't look like an SHO that we all know and love.

have you ever really looked into custom cams? as far as pricing or devlopment time? or did you just pass it off as not enough demand for the cost.

 

[HotRodKid]

I know you are joking ...

good

ive already:

calculated some preliminary runner lengths for various rpm's - 6k-9k iirc-
calculated port size w/o the center divider
calculated port size w/ the center divider
done a rough cad drawing of how to package a short runner intake inside the area occupied by the stock intake (no hood mods, yay!)

 

[SHO NUT]

have you ever really looked into custom cams? as far as pricing or devlopment time? or did you just pass it off as not enough demand for the cost.

Are you talking about new billet cams, or exotic grinds?

The former is obscenely expensive, and the latter is something that may happen.