Upgrading the brakes... some advice needed AND given!

[rcryniak]

Hi Gang! So, I knew last fall that I'd have to (certainly by spring time) replace the brakes on my SHO. Turns out, I was totally right, as I only barely passed inspection on the rotors... he actually wasn't going to pass them, but since I had new brakes ready to go he just sorta nodded it off.

Anyhow, I spoke with some of you last fall, and as I recall, bdp and SHOdded gave some good advice. (Thanks again guys, as always.) The advice I was given was to get good brakes, with the reminder that we're driving a 4,400 lbs land yacht.

OK, you might be thinking "good brakes? duh!", right? But hey, there are less expensive brakes out there that get great reviews... and how bad could they be... even the Ford OEM brakes aren't exactly super cheap at $600 for a full rotor and pad set for all 4 corners so... what to do? I was looking greedily at the PowerStop brakes, only $350 for the full kit - OK, so they were cross-drilled, but how often do cracks really happen? And at those prices, I can afford to replace them in a year or two, no sweat.. and that's only if there's a problem right?

So I ordered the PowerStop Z26 kit. On unboxing, I noticed that the vents weren't dead center in the rotor as you rolled the rotor around. One one side, where the lettering imprint is, it was dead center, with the "meat" of the rotor measuring 3/8" on each side. Roll the rotor 180 degrees, like it were on a wheel/axle, and on the opposite side of that same rotor, it was 5/16" on one side of the vent and 7/16" on the other side of the vent. WOW... not cool. This was on BOTH front rotors!! The manufacturer, when presented with the evidence, admitted it was a defect, and offered to replace them. (Pictures here if you want to see.)

Fair enough, and good for them for trying... but I was also realizing that the glowing user reviews don't reflect a lot of track day use, so I was on the fence to begin with. If they've got quality control issues on top of that, I think I'm going to go with the advice faithfully given by those who've gone before me and get good brakes. As such, I'm literally as of this very moment buying an EBC brake kit with the slotted & dimpled sport rotors and Red Stuff pads. (I'm making AutoAnything price match per their promise muhahaha... yay me. Less than $600!)

Anyhow, that's that, thought you'd all appreciate hearing about that experience...

THAT SAID... while I wait for my EBC kit to arrive, I'm going to plan on other things... what about brake fluid and lines... good time to upgrade them too I'm guessing? Are stainless lines really worth doing the replacement work? What's a good fluid to use? I hear the Motocraft DOT3 is fine for Daily Driving but track I should get much higher temp rated fluid? Any advice on that?

 

[SHOdded]

Definitely a good decision with the EBC kit, I feel. I assume you will regale us with the measurements on that kit as well when it arrives Fingers crossed it does not let you down.

Though I have not actually measured a Power Stop kit to that level, I find it surprising there's such a major production issue. First I've heard of it, but doesn't mean it hasn't been going on for some time or forever. Shoulda made them send you another kit for FREE from their stock just to see if you got an anomaly or a representative of production.

ATE, StopTech, Brembo, Wilwood, etc all make high temp brake fluid that you can use if you want. No idea on how fragile or durable they are. ATE's Super Blue used to be sought-after, but they stopped production on it some time ago. I hear their Type 200 is the same product, but in an amber color. Might want to look into that. The performance fluids usually have a dry boiling point around 600F, instead of the 500F spec'd for Motorcraft.
http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/brakes/brake_fluid.htm

 

[rcryniak]

Thanks for the link, that's good info. I didn't seek to measure the PowerStop rotors... I simply noticed the discrepancy when admiring them for their cross-drilled bling-itude. Since I was getting my inspection done today, I visited the parts department (and picked up a *******' Ford Racing cap!) and took a look at brand new OEMs. No visible distortions whatsoever. Variances in the vanes (being "rough") but they're all like that I think... bottom line, they looked right. The PowerStop rotors definitely did not. However, for everyone here's sake, I probably should have got another PowerStop rotor set to compare... I do wonder if it was an anomaly. What bothered me though was that it was both rotors, not just one. It's easier to argue anomaly in the absence of a pattern.

Anyhow, the tech I talked to today recommended higher temp fluid and stainless lines... what do you think of the idea of going with stainless lines? Good? Doesn't matter? Any thoughts on that?

 

[SHOdded]

The stainless lines I assume are referring to replacement of the rubber brake hoses. Could be good, could be bad. What they do is they prevent flexing of the hose inside, so you get a firmer pedal feel. More of a bling than functional item to me, but that's my opinion.

If you really want to use a non-Motorcraft fluid, I'd suggest looking into ATE Type 200 based on price/performance. It is also supposed to be very resistant to moisture, and this is great for performance and longevity. If you plan to change brake fluid yearly or sooner, then look into other products with higher boiling points (they also tend to be less moisture-resistant, and expensive, hence the need for more frequent changes).

 

[rcryniak]

Thanks!

 

[rcryniak]

Found this stuff... Motul RBF600, dry boiling point of 617 degrees. Holy crap. That's worth a change every year for that kind of peace of mind. Not sure how much though for a flush... 2 liters??

 

[SHOdded]

I believe fill capacity is 1 L, so 2 L should be enough. I'd run through new Motorcraft fluid first, so whatever DOT3 is remaining is new/clean, rather than mixing the Motul with even a bit of the old fluid. So add 2 L of Motorcraft DOT 3 to the list. The next time you flush, only need the Motul from then on.

 

[2011TAURUSSEL]

I don't know about the lines but I would VERY Strongly recommend flushing the system and running totally new fluid through the system. They recommend every 50K miles. With new pads rotors and fluid you will have a excellent starting point for new system.

 

[SilverSH0]

Found this stuff... Motul RBF600, dry boiling point of 617 degrees. Holy crap. That's worth a change every year for that kind of peace of mind. Not sure how much though for a flush... 2 liters??

Are you planning on tracking your car regularly? If so, I can see the point of using that brake fluid. But if you're not tracking it, I don't see the point in spending $90 on brake fluid (cost of 2L).

You can get 32 oz Valvoline synthetic brake fluid for $8 or a total of $16. Granted, that has a boiling point of "only" 500*F vs the 617*F of what you posted.

Here's what I would suggest before you go spend almost $100 on brake fluid. Flush the system with the synthetic Valvoline for $16. Then drive the car like you're going to drive it. If you experience brake fade then get better fluid. Unless you're tracking your car at AutoX or something, I doubt you'll see any difference in the two fluids. Going to the drag strip can be harder on your brakes but there's usually a good cool down period between runs. My opinion is why spend $90 when $16 yields the same results for your application.

 

[SHOdded]

OTOH, if Robb can get a Motul sticker to go with, he could progress towards doing car shows Right, Robb? I remember bpd saying he uses RP everywhere except the trans, would like to hear his voice on this also!

 

[rcryniak]

Are you planning on tracking your car regularly? If so, I can see the point of using that brake fluid. But if you're not tracking it, I don't see the point in spending $90 on brake fluid (cost of 2L).

Actually, yes! Last year, the SCCA started "Track Night in America" at Pittsburgh International Raceway, and I didn't go - not once. Had I know you could participate and be a flag person, etc., and drop that $200+ cost to $40 or $50 or whatever it is, I would have been there all the time lol. Anyhow, I won't be competing amidst other cars, just against myself, but I want to try to get there at least twice this year. And I plan to drag as much as I can between the Flashlight Drags and Quaker City in Ohio.

I have to say... I love living this close to a racetrack. My fun and gas budget won't love me for it this year, but I will

 

[rcryniak]

OTOH, if Robb can get a Motul sticker to go with, he could progress towards doing car shows Right, Robb? I remember bpd saying he uses RP everywhere except the trans, would like to hear his voice on this also!

Actually, was planning on doing Cars n' Coffee at least once, hopefully a few times (it's kinda like a car show) and definitely the Beaver Falls Car Cruise (did that once already, loads of fun)... not the kind bpd went to with the hotties and such ...now that'd be pretty sweet, but atm a bit beyond me, lol. I did actually find MOTUL graphics though haha... I'm still sitting on a Livernois windshield banner. I even had one custom made that is temporary (water based stick on, peel off when done.) Know how often I use it? So far... 0 times lol.

 

[SilverSH0]

Actually, yes! Last year, the SCCA started "Track Night in America" at Pittsburgh International Raceway, and I didn't go - not once. Had I know you could participate and be a flag person, etc., and drop that $200+ cost to $40 or $50 or whatever it is, I would have been there all the time lol. Anyhow, I won't be competing amidst other cars, just against myself, but I want to try to get there at least twice this year. And I plan to drag as much as I can between the Flashlight Drags and Quaker City in Ohio.

I have to say... I love living this close to a racetrack. My fun and gas budget won't love me for it this year, but I will

Last year I also started getting into the SCCA events that are local. Like you, I know I"m not competing against cars that will handle. I just wanted to have fun and improve my skills and keep beating my PR. That said, I would still recommend trying the Valvoline synthetic before spending $90 on the other fluid. I've run probably 1/2 dozen events and never had issues with brake fluid. I did warp the crappy stock rotors on the 2010-2012 non-PP brakes. But this winter I upgraded my brake system. If you're set on the fluid then by all means buy it. I just don't think you'll notice any difference over a more standard option.

 

[rcryniak]

Fair enough! Thanks!

 

[RonPorter]

Just saw this thread. I'll just post my info that I post every coupla weeks when this topic comes up, and it's after 20 years of track events across a number of cars, mostly SHOs, but others also.

Unless you purely like the looks of dimpled/drilled/slotted rotors, don't waste your money. Less mass to dissipate heat. Get solid rotors.

Don't waste any money on SS lines. Not worth it. Porsche guys discovered years ago they work no better for real a world car. When you have a true track racing car and swap out the brake lines after every race, they are fine, assuming you have asponsor!

It has been mentioned, but Valvoline Synthetic has been the SHO (and others) track guy choice for years. If you are boiling Valvoline, you're driving wrong. DO NOT buy Motul. Expensive, way more than you need, and will need to be flushed at least annually, it's more hydroscopic. 200 mph cars that run races for hours use it. 20 minute track sessions don't need it.

Now, with all that $$$ saved above spend it all on good brake pads. EBC Red is a fair pad that was the hot tip 15 years ago. I myself love Carbotech XPs, specifically the XP10/XP8 combo. Yes, they are dusty, but rotor friendly. Really good brake pads leave deposits, unless you buy an import with $20K true ceramic brakes and rotors.

 

[SHOnUup4]

Here's what EBC red stuff pads on slotted rotors look like after amateur hour on the track.



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[SHOnUup4]

And, all the guys that track their cars...were preaching exactly what Ron said above.

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[rcryniak]

Just saw this thread. I'll just post my info....

Thanks! We noobs need all the expert advice we can get

Unless you purely like the looks of dimpled/drilled/slotted rotors, don't waste your money. Less mass to dissipate heat. Get solid rotors.

I chose the slotted and dimpled mostly because I liked how they looked, but read the slotted in particular are very useful for daily driver rotors under rainy conditions, moving water away from between the pad and rotor much like a tire tread moves water away from between the rubber and the road. Sounded good to me... but if that's not true, then at least I have some fun looking rotors for showing off the car. That said, I've never heard that the slotted variety worked worse than plain, only arguments about no benefit vs. conditional benefits. After SHOnUup4's post, I'm now wondering. :/ These EBC brakes show up tomorrow I believe, hoping they're going to be worth it.

Don't waste any money on SS lines. ... When you have a true track racing car and swap out the brake lines after every race, they are fine, assuming you have asponsor!

I was wondering about that... as long as they have comparable ability to move fluid, withstand pressure and withstand water leeching, seems like it'd be for looks only.

Valvoline Synthetic has been the SHO (and others) track guy choice for years. ... DO NOT buy Motul. Expensive, way more than you need, and will need to be flushed at least annually, it's more hydroscopic.

Well... too late. LOL. Already bought the Motul, and it's sitting on the shelf next to the Motorcraft fluid. Was planning on changing that end of summer, depending on how it tested and felt... but I did read that it takes on more water than Motorcraft/stock. Speaking of the stock fluid, the reason I didn't go with the Valvoline is because it's dry boiling point is 480°, and the Motorcraft stuff is 500° - so the latter is better, at least initially. Wet boiling point for each seems to be 311° for Valvoline and Motorcraft merely meeting the DOT 3 requirement at 290°, so they're close, with the Valvoline appearing to be longer lasting. In my opinion, the dry is most important anyhow (unless the wet is really poor), especially if you're doing routine maintenance, so Motorcraft > Valvoline, from what I can see from the specs anyhow. Honestly, I would have been happy with Motorcraft, but was advised from multiple sources to go with a better performing fluid. So I did.

The Motul on the other hand, is >600° Dry (overkill) but 400° wet. The wet meets the DOT3 spec for dry. So that's why I chose that. Even if I have to change it once or twice a year, it seems like by far the safest option. However, again me=noob, so feel free to offer some contrary points, I'm primed to listen.

EBC Red is a fair pad that was the hot tip 15 years ago. I myself love Carbotech XPs, specifically the XP10/XP8 combo. Yes, they are dusty, but rotor friendly.

I seriously could only find, for a 2012 SHO PP, Ford/Motorcraft, "store brand", "TruXP", Centric/PosiQuiet, PowerStop, EBC, and Hawk pads. If you know of some other options, I'm open to trying anything worthwhile.

Really good brake pads leave deposits, unless you buy an import with $20K true ceramic brakes and rotors.

There are $20,000 brakes out there?? wtf???

Here's what EBC red stuff pads on slotted rotors look like after amateur hour on the track.

Melted???? Seriously? Is that a "how you drive" or just characteristic of the Red Stuff... or a characteristic of the slotted rotors?? I thought the EBC Red Stuff were supposed to be good? To melt like that?? What about having separate "track day pads" and "DD pads"? I was already thinking of maybe getting Yellow Stuff for track days - reviewers say they work better at temps than reds - lots of dust but work well... so they've said. Honestly, I find the picture above to be a bit concerning.

 

[SHOnUup4]

My pic posted above was after a day at a road course...my first time ever.

The slotted rotors and red stuff pads do a great job at the dragway and for DD use.

EBC sells better pads than th red red stuff for track purposes, and I found out why. My inexperience combined with slow traffic on the track resulted in extended braking periods for 3 laps, rookie me should have pitted and found an open section to join back in...live and learn.

Blank rotors and high quality pads are in my future as a 2nd set, will keep the looks of slotted and red stuff pads for DD & shows.

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[SHOdded]

Carbon fiber brake setups will set you back a pretty penny for sure, seeing as they are not "hydrodipped" parts

If you don't see the make and model of your vehicle, that doesn't mean we can't make your brake pads/shoes. We can make any brake pad/shoe with your choice of any Carbotech compound, just give us a call at 877-899-5024 or email us at [email protected].
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