Road course and AutoX suspensions. Intrax vs Ground Control

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zach44102

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Ok, I have yet to really decide what spring's I want with my koni's. For the multiple people who have told me what to do on Facebook, I am sorry but im stubborn and I want more feedback from those running intrax.

First lets start off by saying that the car will see some street duty but by no means will be a DD. Mainy a weekend here and there.
I would like to get opinions from those who are running Intrax on the track. I would really like to get the opinions of those running koni/intrax.
The other canidate is Ground Control. What spring rates are you running? What spring lengths? What front mounts are you using?

I really dont mind the harshness of coilovers but if i was to run GC's I would be looking along the lines of 450f/350r. Probably running a 10inch spring in the rear and a 8inch in the front.

Any feedback would be appreciated.
 

Toolman

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Honest opinion here Zach, from someone who had ran every reasonable suspension setup out there, and some unreasonable ones (moog/monroe, eibach/monroe, eibach/tokico, eibach/koni, intrax/tokico, intrax/koni, IPT coilovers/koni, custom coilovers/revalved konis, 250k stock springs with worn out kyb's, etc). Intrax or Eibach/Koni is the way to go (or the new SHOsource coilovers). Unless you spend the dough and get the Koni's revalved for the springs you want to use, a ground control setup will be worse handling than an Intrax/Koni setup. Balance is what you are after, not stiffness. And lowering a SHO more than 1-1.5'' without taking steps to modify further your suspension to allow for proper alignment, and spending the money on proper sway bar links, is again going to result in a SHO that handles worse than a simple 1.5'' drop and Intrax/Koni's.

You really either need to go ALL the way in and get proper mounts, endlinks, revalved Konis, race tires, etc etc, and end up with a race car that is very uncomfortable on the street, or stick with the very good handling Intrax/Koni setup, and save lots of dough. Plus, Koni's (or any damper) will simply not last as long when they are mated to a spring rate stiffer than intended. You will gain MUCH MUCH better handling response by getting a proper alignment, losing wieght from the car, and track tires, than you will by using Ground Controls. Do not fall into the poser trap of thinking stiffer=faster.
 

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I have been running koni/intrax for about 2 years now. I have yet to open track the car, but have autox'ed it fairly often. I have been impressed with the set up. The car feels very planted and people who have watched said that the car stays flat and has very minimal body roll in the corners. My other suspension tweaks are asfb, sfc, 20/26 sway bar set up along with all poly bushings and a wavetrac. It has made the car very fun in the twisties.
 

zach44102

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I have those exact supporting suspension mods minus the quaife. It's so hard not to purchase a coilovers setup. I'm trying my best to say **** you coilovers and buy intrax.
 

SHOspazz92

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Honest opinion here Zach, from someone who had ran every reasonable suspension setup out there, and some unreasonable ones (moog/monroe, eibach/monroe, eibach/tokico, eibach/koni, intrax/tokico, intrax/koni, IPT coilovers/koni, custom coilovers/revalved konis, 250k stock springs with worn out kyb's, etc). Intrax or Eibach/Koni is the way to go (or the new SHOsource coilovers). Unless you spend the dough and get the Koni's revalved for the springs you want to use, a ground control setup will be worse handling than an Intrax/Koni setup. ..........

ORLY?

I'm using stock valving for the Koni's with my 500 front, 430 rear setup. I can promise you, without a doubt in my mind that with a Koni/Intrax setup my car would be a QUITE a bit slower through a Auto-X course. However, The Koni/Intrax setup is a great setup for a street car, not to mention if you are just starting out it can be much more forgiving and will have a less steep learning curve.

The advantages of how stiff my suspension for the Auto-X course would not translate nearly as well on a road course, but I still think it would be a step above the other combo's currently being run. However for the type of driving I do these GC's have been EXCELLENT. I think 5+ top 20 finishes (in a field of 70-120 cars), a 2009 North Carolina Autocross championship win and still being undefeated in the C-Prepared class for the last 3 years proves that. Generally, the only cars running in front of me (That are not in my class) weigh below 2300 LBS or have A LOT more tire. And I assure you, It's not mad driving skill on my part, as the group I run with churns out Quite a few Nationals runner ups/winners or Regional champions every year.

Zach, run the Koni/Intrax. You are going to be very happy with it. I run the GC's and it works extremely well for me, I'm probably one of the few who would say that. With that said, I can't wait to get he new coil-overs put on the white car. =)

-Sam
 
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SHOhopefull

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Piggybacking on here... what's the ride like with the Koni/Intrax as compared to Eibach/Tokico?
 

Shoaz

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I'm using stock valving for the Koni's with my 500 front, 430 rear setup. I can promise you, without a doubt in my mind that with a Koni/Intrax setup my car would be a QUITE a bit slower through a Auto-X course. However, The Koni/Intrax setup is a great setup for a street car, not to mention if you are just starting out it can be much more forgiving and will have a less steep learning curve.

IIRC those spring rates will be close to the limit of what you'd want to do with stock Konis, but you're right that they should work. I had stock Konis with 500/350 springs in the Pumpkin for a long time before I did finally rework a lot of stuff.

The advantages of how stiff my suspension for the Auto-X course would not translate nearly as well on a road course, but I still think it would be a step above the other combo's currently being run. However for the type of driving I do these GC's have been EXCELLENT. I think 5+ top 20 finishes (in a field of 70-120 cars), a 2009 North Carolina Autocross championship win and still being undefeated in the C-Prepared class for the last 3 years proves that. Generally, the only cars running in front of me (That are not in my class) weigh below 2300 LBS or have A LOT more tire. And I assure you, It's not mad driving skill on my part, as the group I run with churns out Quite a few Nationals runner ups/winners or Regional champions every year.

IMHO the main advantage of stiff springs is that the car reacts more quickly to driver input. In competition that's pretty important when you're out for that last tenth or two. So I agree that ultimately a stiffer setup (to a point) will be better for competition, certainly over a streetable spring rate. Losing streetability is the compromise you take to do so, though.

Stiff springs will also limit roll, which helps reduce unhappy roll-related camber effects, which can be important on a strut suspension like the SHO has.

e.g., my SVT Focus was incredibly well balanced on the stock suspension. It didn't need anything done to it as far as managing understeer/oversteer, etc. So when I prepped it for TTF and took it to Nationals I used all my classing points for tires (R6), thinking it was balanced enough that that would be a better place to use up classing points than a different suspension setup.

It was ok that way, and I ultimately got within about 0.2 sec of the PTF track record at PIR, but not very close to the TTF record that had been set in a Sentra Spec-V on NT-01s (i.e., less sticky tires) and coilovers. I think the Spec-V is overall a better car for that class, but even though the Focus was very well balanced, it rolled too much on the stock springs (especially on sticky tires!) and the slow response to driver input didn't help at all.

So for serious competition I don't think there's a substitute for coilovers. If you're managing budget and/or want to keep the car streetable, then you do what you can given the desired constraints, and Konis and aftermarket springs aren't necessarily a bad way to go if that's the case.
 

SHOspazz92

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Eric, For sure I am pushing my Koni's to the limit. The fronts are holding up, however I think the left rear may have just went south when a Friend of mine Auto-X'ed it a few weeks ago. Not bad for 5 years of beating the crap out of it! I think less weight may be helping a bit (Especially over the rears).

-Sam
 

SHOspazz92

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With all due respect, you guys are gonna confuse the **** out of this kid, even further than he's confused now.

Hey Babs, Just flexing my nuts here. So pipe down you communist.

Zach, Get the Intrax springs. It's going to be SUCH an improvement over your current setup that your going to be thinking to yourself "Are coilovers REALLY necessary?!"

Fix car, Dew work, drive it n'shit, Worry about Coilovers a long time from now. K? THX

-Sam
 

zach44102

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With all due respect, you guys are gonna confuse the **** out of this kid, even further than he's confused now.

Yes they have but I kinda tried to do the metal block thing and just know I'm buying the intrax. It's funny cause when you read it over it's like they tell me to buy intrax but then they go and talk about how great their coilovers are and that with them they compete and finish top of their class. I just have to say no to drugs.....I mean coilovers.
 

SHOspazz92

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Yes they have but I kinda tried to do the metal block thing and just know I'm buying the intrax. It's funny cause when you read it over it's like they tell me to buy intrax but then they go and talk about how great their coilovers are and that with them they compete and finish top of their class. I just have to say no to drugs.....I mean coilovers.

Oh no sir, I'm not saying Coilovers are best for you. I'm just rebutting some post's about coilovers in general. I need them for what I do, and they work great for what I do. You have a long way to go to get where some folks are as far as tracking/racing their car (no pun intended). With that said, the Koni/Intrax setup is perfect for you.

-Sam
 

zach44102

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Yep, and so far that is majority vote. Thankyou for all your input.
 

SHO Dude

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My '90 is a track car. It has a Gen III front subframe, Koni shock inserts and Eibach springs. It's got our Original Subframe Bushings and Original Subframe Connectors. It also has 13" Cobra brakes and Performance Friction T1S Racing Pads with our Original Custom Stainless Steel Brake Lines. I have 17" wheels (cheap chinese crap, but it does the job) and Kumho Victor Racers. The engine is a built 3.2L with ported heads and Stage I cams. I am using one of our Killer Clutches and one of our built transmission with a Quaiffe differential.

IMG 0510

IMG 0509

I just came back from Virginia International Raceway and couldn't be more impressed with the car. I ran 5 sessions and had an absolute blast. The car is an animal on this track. The track is great because it really caters to the FWD platform. All the corners apex very late. The first session was pretty comical as I was lost most of the way around. But after a few sessions, it was full on. I was going 120mph into turn 1, and braking at the 300' marker. The next straight starts with esses and ends with esses. This was my favorite part of the track. I was going into turn 6 at about 60mph and foot on the floor, then shifting into 4th before the bridge. I'd ease up to set up the up-hill esses and pour the power on. I was topping the hill at 110mph. Oak Tree has a big freakin' stop sign and you've just got to wait for it. But the back straight is llooooonnnnnngggg...and up hill. I was going into turn 14a at 125mph.

The point is that the suspension was only lacking in one area. I still need to get our Original Aluminum Rear Control. At the top of the up-hill esses, I could really feel the back of the car and if felt top heavy. The car felt like it was rolling over on a high center. It was very predictable, but I would like it to be more stable.

So even after 5 sessions in the heat, the tires still look new. I'm not even rolling the tires over to the edge of the tread. Guess I get to push a little harder.

I also need to install our custom oil cooler system. On a 96 degree day, the temp gauge was running on the N. Our oil cooler system will help keep the temps low and makes sure the engine lasts a long time.

What a great track. I'll be going back for the Labor Day Weekend to take on the PCA.
 

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