An aftermarket FPR does not mean you avoid having to tune, at least as regards a FI build.
400ft-lbs of torque?
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An aftermarket FPR does not mean you avoid having to tune, at least as regards a FI build.
SinisterSHO
Rust free
This has to do with FPR's, right?
91PDXmocha
Active Member
Why spend unneeded money on broken fuel lines . Can tune around it with rubber hose and moar clamp.
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Art5
Active Member
My question is now, if I was to use FPR on this setup, would it give me more HP?
This sounds like something that would come from the Vadim playbook. Sure, you can disable the computers ability to learn any fuel trims, but that's a half-assed way to do it. Once you start driving through drastically different atmospheric conditions, what are you relying on for any type of compensation?
This is NOT what I would call "proper tuning". This type of tuning is not something I would pay someone for; are you informing your customers exactly what you're doing?
For anyone reading this and looking to boost/put in a >155lph pump and big injectors, just spend the $200(ish) and get an adjustable FPR from Josh. You could make your own setup for a little less, but it's nice to buy something already sized for the car.
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Art5
Active Member
This is the sh^t I was trying to find out in previous posts, about how is it possible that this car has just injectors and fpr and everything is fine and so many threads here, about how you nhave to use FPR with big injectors on boosted cars and here is a turbo kit without FPR.
I'd like to read more arguements on this one, if there are any.
RonPorter
SHO Club of America
The whole point is that once the car is set properly, it's DONE.
I go back to the Kurt Metros example with his '90 with the blower. He got Jerry (famous tuner at the time) to tune his car. At that time, it was the BEST s/c SHO out there. True turn-key with no issues.
I defend Doug in this. Once the car is set up, it's DONE. Why spend the extra $$$ if it's not needed??
Now, if you insist on playing with the setup in the future, go with the aftermarket FPR setup, but 99.9999% of folks would never need it.
Why spend $$ if it's not required? If I've learned nothing else in 40+ years of modifying cars, it's that staying with stock parts whenever possible is a good thing.
I go back to the Kurt Metros example with his '90 with the blower. He got Jerry (famous tuner at the time) to tune his car. At that time, it was the BEST s/c SHO out there. True turn-key with no issues.
I defend Doug in this. Once the car is set up, it's DONE. Why spend the extra $$$ if it's not needed??
Now, if you insist on playing with the setup in the future, go with the aftermarket FPR setup, but 99.9999% of folks would never need it.
Why spend $$ if it's not required? If I've learned nothing else in 40+ years of modifying cars, it's that staying with stock parts whenever possible is a good thing.
I've seen your previous posts and I highly suggest taking the time to understand how the fuel system works, as well as how the EEC handles fuel.
Basically, he is tuning for a constant and not allowing the pump and FPR to maintain the same pressure differential through vacuum and boost, which will not allow EEC to compensate for any type of changes. In addition, if you were to take this type of tune, then put on a proper FPR and re-enable the EEC's learning ability, you'll quickly go lean under WOT.
As manifold pressure rises, the fuel pressure should rise. This works both ways... When manifold pressure drops, fuel pressure should drop (base pressure is set/referenced at atmospheric pressure). With the stock FPR and a pump that is too large, you do not get this relationship.
I can't really agree that it's "done" or with this technique being referred to as "properly". He's disabling the computer's ability to compensate for any type of changes regarding fuel. Moving from somewhere like Atlanta, to Denver will almost likely require an adjustment in tuning. Even a properly tuned car is constantly swaying back in forth in fuel changes. It is accounting for all the variables, that we can't predict, by comparing input vs output.
I agree with this practice, however, I don't think this is one that should be left stock if running a pump that is too large for the stocker.
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RonPorter
SHO Club of America
Well, if you move from Atlanta to Denver, get a new tune.....
IMO, this is BS. Get the car set....it's set......if you life is that much in flux where you move across the country once a year, do something different.
IMO, Doug's solution works for 99.999% of the people. From what I've seen, there are WAYY too many s/c and turbo folks who never get things right. I have seen what a good tune does on a stable car like Kurt's, and I have seen Doug's cars that also work well.
Success is what matters. After 40+ years of modifying cars, I have learned what a lot of you "may" also learn someday. Before that, you will all keep ******* around with shit that just makes your cars suboptimal.
BS? Honest question... What exactly do you know about tuning EFI? How long, how many miles and what type of miles were put on Kurt's car?
Sure, dial down the timing and flog it full of fuel and it'll hold together (but suboptimal). If bypassing everything were "set it and forget it", then auto manufacturers are just wasting their time since that's what 99% of the world wants.
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Why spend $200 for a proper fuel pressure regulator on a $7000 turbo/SC build? I agree Ron, complete waste of money.
Art5
Active Member
oh, so now I see. In Doug's setup, there is no way back or forward out of this setup, unless you're tuning it.
On the other hand, i take my car out in winter , sometimes, when road is clear, just for a ride, or I like to go to different places in the mountains and all that, so does this mean that I will have a problem with the tune if I drive from warmer area to colder and vice versa?
And another thing I cannot understand still, is why so much torque and a lot less HP?
On the other hand, i take my car out in winter , sometimes, when road is clear, just for a ride, or I like to go to different places in the mountains and all that, so does this mean that I will have a problem with the tune if I drive from warmer area to colder and vice versa?
And another thing I cannot understand still, is why so much torque and a lot less HP?
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You wont if you buy a FPR and tune it the way you should.
SeanMc
NoMoSHO
[youtube]teMlv3ripSM[/youtube]
More importantly, it runs out of efficiency at higher demand.
strings1732
RMTE-TRBO-SHO
Here is the big issue with turning off the learning ability to the EEC:
barometric pressure changes constantly and so does altitude, humidity, temperature and all sorts of stuff. all of these things will change the fuel that is needed for any type of car. For instance a carburetor on an older car is set for one fuel level. Changing altitude or on cold days or whenever barometric pressure changes(always changing) the car will start to get less/more fuel than is needed. So if you were driving only when it is a cool 72 degrees out with 30 percent relative humidity(or whatever it was when the car was tuned) and only on a flat road that has the exact same altitude then sure the car runs fine. But stray from those and the EEC can no longer compensate for any variables that happen on a minute by minute basis. In other words WRONG! I find it quite humorous that anyone would think differently.
Knowing how to work on cars means nothing if you do not understand the physics and engineering that went into these cars. Or any car for that matter. Understanding that stock parts were meant for STOCK configuration is the first thing you should learn. then realizing what should or needs to be upgraded is next. Putting a bandaid over a part that should be replaced is not the correct way. Especially when cost effectiveness of the part far outweighs the price of the part.. When you are talking 6,000- 10,000 in a car, whats another ~200 to make it proper and also the peace of mind you will get that the car will not go lean under certain conditions and blow your engine.
But what do I know?
barometric pressure changes constantly and so does altitude, humidity, temperature and all sorts of stuff. all of these things will change the fuel that is needed for any type of car. For instance a carburetor on an older car is set for one fuel level. Changing altitude or on cold days or whenever barometric pressure changes(always changing) the car will start to get less/more fuel than is needed. So if you were driving only when it is a cool 72 degrees out with 30 percent relative humidity(or whatever it was when the car was tuned) and only on a flat road that has the exact same altitude then sure the car runs fine. But stray from those and the EEC can no longer compensate for any variables that happen on a minute by minute basis. In other words WRONG! I find it quite humorous that anyone would think differently.
Knowing how to work on cars means nothing if you do not understand the physics and engineering that went into these cars. Or any car for that matter. Understanding that stock parts were meant for STOCK configuration is the first thing you should learn. then realizing what should or needs to be upgraded is next. Putting a bandaid over a part that should be replaced is not the correct way. Especially when cost effectiveness of the part far outweighs the price of the part.. When you are talking 6,000- 10,000 in a car, whats another ~200 to make it proper and also the peace of mind you will get that the car will not go lean under certain conditions and blow your engine.
But what do I know?
While I don't agree that a FPR is un-needed, I don't get why there's all this arguing.
Obviously neither side is going to convince the other, what's the point?
As long as Doug's customers are aware of what they are getting, and are happy with it, what's the problem?
What I don't get is how a car tuned with Doug's method would handle a cross country trip (SHO Convention anyone?). Sure you could get it tuned for both locations, but that seems a bit silly, that's more like carbs than EFI.
Obviously neither side is going to convince the other, what's the point?
As long as Doug's customers are aware of what they are getting, and are happy with it, what's the problem?
What I don't get is how a car tuned with Doug's method would handle a cross country trip (SHO Convention anyone?). Sure you could get it tuned for both locations, but that seems a bit silly, that's more like carbs than EFI.
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I agree. Do you not also agree that it is a good thing to leave the computer calibration stock when possible? Would you recommend leaving the MAF stock on a forced induction SHO, because with 'proper tuning' you can make it work.
A healthy discussion of the valid points concerning adding a proper FPR to a forced induction SHO build can be of great benefit to people who are contemplating doing said build themselves. If someone was undecided, perhaps seeing this thread will convince them, regardless if the OP changes his mind.
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