wont start now

[stangconcepts]

Ok I was playing with the SHO tonight and I moved it and let it run for about 15-20 min.I got in after the temp cam up and I reved it to about 3500 RPM.I turned the wheel a little and noticed it would push back a little.I here it sqweel at lock, but no where else.So I reved it when I turned the wheel and it died.Well it didnt want to start right away after it did start i did it again and it died again. It would not start again.I tried holding the pedal on the floor with no luck.I then turned the key to on and went and checked to see if I had fuel pressure and I got nothin.I banged on the CCRM with no luck.and I trried to start with now luck.I cant tell if its the fuel pump priming or what but I hera a relay kicking and a motor running.but could not tell where.OH the last time it ran tonight I would tap the gas and it would die,did this about three time before the no start problem and I saw someone else with this problem but I cant find the post.HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry it is so long!!!!

 

[stangconcepts]

I am going through all the search stuff and I am checking the fuel system as per a thread on fuel system checks and I am still lost.I may need a CCRM if any of you have one let me know a price.The sticker on it is pink and white with a Large letter D on it and part# F3DF-12B577-AA AND THE NUMBER IN THE CORNER 102. If you have a better idea let me know cause I cant get the car to start now and I need it running by next monday!!!!PLEASE HELP. :ruhroh: :ruhroh: :ruhroh:

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Start by checking the simple things needed for the engine to run: fuel, air, and spark.

Start by determining if you're getting fuel, and if it is at sufficient pressure. Since it sounds like you may have a fuel problem, you're going to want to check the fuel pump by jumping the EEC test connector to force the pump on, check to make sure it's running, and then put a gauge on the rail and check pressure.

 

[Bizzy]

Ok, let's back up to the beginning here.

The car was running prior to what you did albeit it would die after revving it slightly correct?

Next...quit banging on the CCRM for now. It may not be your problem anyway and by doing this you can cause more harm than good.

When you turn the key to run (not start) do you hear the fuel pump prime for a few seconds and then shut off? You should be able to hear it turn on.

Just for informational purposes, when the car is running and you turn the wheel to one lock or from lock to lock the pressure inside the rack builds a great deal of pressure in it. The power steering pressure switch will increase the idle slightly to compensate for the pressure which allows the car to continue running so if the switch is bad then it could cause the car to die. Now in the Gen II with variable assist, I'm not entirely sure about. The pressure switch may be built into the variable assist for all I know.

The squealing you heard was more than likely your power steering pump or belt and was probably caused from the pressure that was built up inside the pump. Make sure you double check the fluid level and the belt if you haven't already.

If the car dies when you turn the wheel all the way to lock you could be looking at a new power steering pressure switch or something with the VAPS. But first check your connections to verify that they are plugged in and that the connectors are clean.

Now the car won't start at all. As Chris said, verify fuel, air and spark. You might also consider running KOEO tests as well to see if there are any codes stored in the EEC.

I'm not exactly sure if the power steering pressure switch and/or the VAPS carries vRef or not, but if they do and if vRef is not present (if it's shorted to ground) then it will not allow the computer to do what it needs to do and you won't get any fuel pump prime or pressure.

Checking the fuel pressure by manually making the pump come on is great, but if the computer can't or won't make it prime by itself then you have another electrical issue that needs to be addressed. But it would be a good way to rule out functional issues with the pump itself. So we need to know if the fuel pump comes on or not when you turn the key forward to run.

Please list everything that has been done to your car recently, most problems will be in the areas that you have been working on. I know this from my own personal experience this past summer. Let's start with the basics here first and then work out way up to the more complicated shhhtuff.

In the mean time, I'll do more reading on the Gen II VAPS system to see if I can learn more about it so I can give some better educated replies. I don't want to give out wrong information.

Also, what motor do you hear running when you turn the key to on? The fan motor by chance?

 

[stangconcepts]

Ok I went down and play a bit more.I got in and turned the key to start and it took a second but it started slowly I guess the lack of fuel pressure and then it cam up slowly to normal rpm.I let it run until I saw the temp come up a bit then revd it to 3500 rpm.I tried turning the wheel and it did squeel a bit at lock or with higher rpm but I do know it needs belts.OK it seemed to run fine for the moment.I went to check fuel pressure but my gauge would not depress the schrader valve,I will have to look into that.I can push it with a pen and when I did it died. I did not push it all the way down,only enough to see if I had fuel pressure.Then it would not start again.I checked for fuel pump and I can hear it prime.I checked the codes and got 211 and 542.could not check KOER.Then with the jumper wire still in I turned on the key got out and pressed the schrader valve and when the fuel pump check started I had fuel pressure and the fans did their test as they should.OK so I know the pump is working BUT!!! I turned the key on and off 6 times to prime and make sure I built pressure in the lines,then pressed the valve maybe 5 seconds later (as much time as it takes to go from the door to the engine) and I got a little fuel run out,Not a squirt or stream but more like a dribble.Press it again and i could swear it sucked in. Turn the key once to prime and I get nothing but what seamed like vacume I swear it sucked in and no sign of fuel. I dont know if this helps.I am going to check the deal with pin 10 and 5 whan I find that thread.any other ideas?pump,pressure regulator,filter,ccrm,I dont think ccrm or filter because it seems to happen after it warms up.This is the first thread I started on this car if it helps, It gives all the codes I got when it did run.http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=36995One more thing I think it needs a tune up BAD!! I pulled the three front plugs though not much oil in the wells but the plugs where motorcraft plugs that gapped from.075-.080 I think they are a little worn.But i dont think this has to do with any of the problems.If it helps i am a pretty good mech,But the SHO is new to me and so are a lot of the terms and abbreveations.

 

[Bizzy]

If the pump primes when the key is turned to run then that relay in the CCRM is fine and there is no need to mess with that. These are the things that I would address:

1. Your engine codes

• 211 - PIP circuit fault. This is probably your starting/stalling problem. I'd almost put money on it even.
• 542 - Fuel pump secondary circuit failure. (nothing to worry about since you will get this code any time the car stalls. Usually we just ignore this code)

2. What the fuel pressure is and why, or even if you have a problem.
3. Your plug issue, perhaps the wires as well. You'd be amazed at the difference those two things can make. It'll be like it's a whole different car.

 

[stangconcepts]

OK first off Thank you for all the help I think I will need to make a donation after this ...I went and played some more.I got in turned the key and heard the pump prime the started the car and it did fine.Let it idle for a second and shut it off and restarted it.OK I jumped the wirest to get the koer codes and I got116,159,411,412 and 538.I did not let the car warm up first and it was 42 degrees out..Then I checked koeo codes and got 114,211,542 after it warmed up I played a little with the fuel pressure and with the jumper wire in and the computer doing the fuel pump check I had 40 PSI.Then i ran the car got 35 PSI running and 40PSI reving. I shut it off and checked pressure and nothing.I turned the key on and off 6 times till I heard the fuel pump slowing down from pressure counted to 10 then checked pressure and nothing Should the pressure bleed off this fast? My mustangs dont!Now the car is warmed up I have turned on the heat and have nice warm airand I tap the gass and the car shuts down.No rpm increse like I just shut it off.!!!!!

 

[stangconcepts]

I have looked at the DIS no cracks wires tight.Unpluged the CCRM and all looked clean and tight, Looked at all the grounds I could see and they are tight. Cleaned the battery terminals.Which would give me trouble if I did the check with the car cold?Please hummor me when you talk about a part like IAT,or ECT tell me what it means,Like MAF(mass air flow sensor) I need to learn what the parts are and the chiltons book calls it different things. I tried to find PIP and it isnt called that or a CKP.They call it a CPS (crankshaft position sensor) But here CPS is the cam sensor,right?.anyways I am going to need parts and if you have what I might need tell me a price shipped.Also is $76.00 for a new crank sensor to much? Thanks again for all the help.Andn thank you Bizzy For all your help here and everywhere.

 

[Bizzy]

KOER codes
116 - Engine Coolant (ECT) sensor out of range.
159 - MAF out of self-test range.
411 - Idle speed system not controlling idle properly (generally idle too high).
412 - Idle speed system not controlling idle properly (generally idle too low).
538 - Operator error (dynamic response / cylinder balance tests). System did not receive "goose" test.

KOEO codes
114 - ACT out of self-test range.
211 - PIP circuit fault.
542 - Fuel pump secondary circuit failure.

So now that you know what the codes are you pretty much know where you have to start. I'd personally start with the code 211 first. Don't worry about 538 since that was your boo-boo and as I said above, 542 is probably caused from when the car stalls out.


IAB - Idle Air Bypass also called IAC (idle air control)
ECT - engine coolant temperature sensor

CKP or CPS - crankshaft position sensor - is directly below your water pump.

(CPS is not the cam sensor, this is a common misunderstanding. None of the Ford documentations refer to the crank sensor as the CPS.)

CID or CMP is the cam sensor and is on the passenger rear of the motor, on the end of the rear camshaft directly above the power steering pump.

Rockauto lists the Motorcraft crankshaft sensor for $69.89. I have a new one here, I'll shoot you a PM.

 

[stangconcepts]

Ok I will PM you and thank you.Does any body have a comment on the fuel pressure bleeding off so fast? My mustangs I can let them sit over night and they still have some pressure in the system. Pressure regulater? Does anybody have one? I would like to try that and a new fuel filter.

 

[khanartist]

Our 93 ATX had an intermittent CCRM failure of the fuel pump relay. Just finished fixing it a couple of days ago. Just something you might want to keep in mind. Does the pump prime all the time?

 

[anarchy04]

I would say that you need a FPR. I had the same problem and it was after I did my engine swap and I took the fuel lines off the fuel rail and I had a bad seal on the FPR treads after I put it together so I put some teflon tape on them and it fixed it. I don't think yours would be leaking from the treads and bypassing the FPR valve like mine but the valve in the FPR could be leaking. Yes mine would start to suck air in after 10 seconds without even pressing the check valve before.