2013blacksho
SHO Member
Has anyone used the Waterless coolant that is one the market. Has a higher boiling point that water based coolants and in a boosted engine cooler is better. Any feed back would be cool.
Waterless coolant
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Izzmo
SHO Enthusiast
What exactly is the point?
GHNorth
SHO Member
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No water, so no corrosion in the engine. This is particularly important for guys who have an old muscle car sitting in the garage that only gets driven a few times a year. Once you put Evans in it, you never need to check it or change it. It never breaks down. (Of course this is all according to the manufacturer. I don't use it and have no personal experience. You have to completely dry out your engine block and all lines and accessories before filling with Evans, so they suggest you get a professional to do it. Too much effort, and too much money for me.)
2013blacksho
SHO Member
I work as a hvac engineer with focus on hydronics. In my Industry any water/ antifreeze mix the ability to transfer heat is reduced and also the coolant would also be thicker that water which makes it 1. Harder to pump and if the problem with the water pumps are the gears and them braking down could be from stress. 2. If the fluid of the Waterless coolant viscosity is less that would take stress off the cast gears and as well as better heat transfer. As for the boiling point of water the Waterless coolant would be a little more consistent. As you add pressure to any fluid you raise its temp and also change the characteristics of its boiling point. Just a thought not as much for corrosion but for getting the heat out. Aluminum is a great heat sink but also has large problem with acid corrosion caused from exhaust mixed with water (which should never happen) but who knows. Thanks for the replies.
PinkE
New Member
I just converted my 2017 to Evans.
I converted my ATVs years ago, the selling point on ATVs is that the fan almost never runs.
Its pretty expensive for a car so never bothered. Fast forward and my older car, a 2002 Saab Viggen just blew a head gasket. So i started reading about waterless coolant again.
Major selling point to me is almost 0 pressure, you can take the cap off and your system doesnt boil away. So no pressure, no leaks, no blown head gaskets, no leaking turbos. Supposedly.
Evans will tell you that it doesnt run cooler, but that if any of the water in your heads turns to steam the steam is completely ineffective as a heat transfer agent.
I havent finished my conversion yet, it currently has the prep fluid in it.
I bought a new thermostat to go in her tomorrow when i flush the prep fluid.
I converted my ATVs years ago, the selling point on ATVs is that the fan almost never runs.
Its pretty expensive for a car so never bothered. Fast forward and my older car, a 2002 Saab Viggen just blew a head gasket. So i started reading about waterless coolant again.
Major selling point to me is almost 0 pressure, you can take the cap off and your system doesnt boil away. So no pressure, no leaks, no blown head gaskets, no leaking turbos. Supposedly.
Evans will tell you that it doesnt run cooler, but that if any of the water in your heads turns to steam the steam is completely ineffective as a heat transfer agent.
I havent finished my conversion yet, it currently has the prep fluid in it.
I bought a new thermostat to go in her tomorrow when i flush the prep fluid.
So I'd like to add a few things to this. First, held under pressure, the boiling point of water at 15 psi is 250°. Second, converting a lb of water to steam absorbs 970 BTU of heat. Conversely, raising the temperature of a lb of water by 1°F only absorbs 1 BTU, and a lb of Glycol only absorbs 0.59 BTU. So the declaration that steam is bad for cooling your engine couldn't be further from the truth. Of course, if you produce enough of it to vapor lock your heads then that is a big problem, but at that point you were already in deep, deep trouble.
Compared to water, glycol is completely ineffective as a heat transfer fluid. Refer above to the 0.59 lb/(btu°F) specific heat. Loosely speaking, that means at a given fluid temperature the car running 100% glycol must have a head temperature differential 69% hotter AND a radiator temp differential 69% colder to maintain equal heat transfer!
Even Evans will tell you that their product will run the same or higher. But even as pointed out above, seeing the same temperature on your coolant gauge means your engine is running much hotter. They are probably a great product for trailer queens and boomer driven cruisers that will never see more than 2 seconds of WOT a year. But interpreting a 100% glycol product as anything related to performance is a grave mistake. I strongly encourage you to STOP what you are doing, read the link below, and think really long and hard before deciding to proceed any further.
PinkE
New Member
I read that document first.
If you believe that document head temperatures range from 650 to 980 degrees.
An engine isnt producing 1 btu.
How many btus are absorbed when the coolant is 250 degrees and the head is 650 or 950?
It also consumes some large amount of energy to convert the steam back to water. Like heat pipe cooling technology.
Maybe the system was designed like a heat pipe and is ment to generate large amounts of steam to then convert it back to remove large amounts of energy from the system.
The radiator in a car has excess cooling capacity. Raising your coolant temperature 2% is not going to exceed this. But having the radiator hotter will make it more efficient.
I switched to remove the pressure. My last car i was out on the salt flats running hard, blew a hose lost all water in seconds didnt see any steam blew a head gasket in under a minute. Before the temp guage even rose.
Waterless coolant doesnt have pressure, you dont **** hoses radiator end caps and head gaskets. This is the senario i switched for, not for some theory crafted ability to dissipate heat or not. It clearly does its primary job well enough. Tons of people use it without issues.
If you believe that document head temperatures range from 650 to 980 degrees.
An engine isnt producing 1 btu.
How many btus are absorbed when the coolant is 250 degrees and the head is 650 or 950?
It also consumes some large amount of energy to convert the steam back to water. Like heat pipe cooling technology.
Maybe the system was designed like a heat pipe and is ment to generate large amounts of steam to then convert it back to remove large amounts of energy from the system.
The radiator in a car has excess cooling capacity. Raising your coolant temperature 2% is not going to exceed this. But having the radiator hotter will make it more efficient.
I switched to remove the pressure. My last car i was out on the salt flats running hard, blew a hose lost all water in seconds didnt see any steam blew a head gasket in under a minute. Before the temp guage even rose.
Waterless coolant doesnt have pressure, you dont **** hoses radiator end caps and head gaskets. This is the senario i switched for, not for some theory crafted ability to dissipate heat or not. It clearly does its primary job well enough. Tons of people use it without issues.
Bluezone
Tailgaters will be prosecuted.
Head gaskets generally don't **** from coolant pressure. Cylinder pressure is much higher than that. What happens is when water-based coolant converts to steam it doesn't transfer heat very well anymore. The head gaskets are generally blown by expansion and contraction and weakening of head and cylinder block material by temperature. Usually the shifting caused by expansion and contraction reduces contact pressure on the sealing ring of the head gasket. Bolt or head torque is reduced because of this. Warpage due to temperature extremes also doesn't help.
Waterless coolant boils at a temperature that's so much higher that which the lubricating / cooling oil gives out (oil cools the friction surfaces) and breaks down in its ability to lubricate.
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SM105K
Streetlight Grand Prix Champ/ IG @fafomotorsports
or it went lean, smoked a cylinder and pressurized the coolant system....
And you don't? Here, hope this helps. Two scientific studies detailing peak cylinder head temperatures around ~570 F, with both modeled and experimental data. But mind you, these are both looking at oem diesel engines running steady state at only 800 F port EGTs. Your SHO can nearly double those EGTs with just 10 seconds of WOT (POST-TURBO, all the way at the cat!!!). Laying your hand on a valve cover, or even wrapping a CHT sensor around a spark plug, is a far cry from laboratory testing instrumentation.
Quantities are irrelevant when describing the differing dynamics of the fluids. 1 btu/h or 10,000,000 btu/h, it's the same principle. Are trying to be cute or something?
The real question is - when the Evans Kool-Aint is 250 F, and the bridge between your exhaust ports is 950 F, and the ground straps on your spark plugs have begun glowing - how many btus are rejected through the gaping hole that has just melted through your piston?
Yeah, it's almost like they design heat transfer systems to absorb heat from a source and reject it elsewhere. Go figure lol. From the first paper linked above:
"Boiling was proved to be good in cooling jacket but
up to a considerable limit. Nucleate boiling was very
initial stage of boiling. Nucleate boiling increases
heat absorption from boiling surface in the form of
latent heat required for phase change of liquid."
and from the second paper:
"Modern day jackets are designed for controlled boiling. Controlled
nucleate boiling helps in augmenting the convective heat transfer and
therefore helps in better cooling."
Yeah, steam improves localized heat transfer by as much as 6x yet Evans brags about reducing that effect. They are the right people to be listening to about coolant performance for sure.
Wrong, wrong and wrong. I'm not trying to be rude but the basic fundamentals of convection are flying right over your head. You've already read the hard data in black and white that proves these statements to be nonsense. Choosing to ignore physics doesn't make it go away.
-If the SHO had such untapped cooling system potential, then my ECT probably wouldn't shoot 40 degrees above my thermostat setting after just 12 seconds of WOT.
-Elevated coolant temp is a direct consequence of reduced cooling capacity.
-Absolutely in no way shape or form is making any part of a cooling system hotter going to make the system more efficient or effective, aside from a hotter heat source (the engine), exactly what we don't want.
When I was young and stupid I ran 100% antifreeze in my Jeep once. The engine got hot enough to distort the oil pump housing which then squeezed against the gears, just lightly scoring the aluminum. That Jeep has just sat in the garage ever since because it can't make more than 10 psi of oil pressure. Coolant temp never got past 210-220 degrees. It never "overheated" or boiled over, or did anything else to give warning. This happened just cruising around town; no racing or offroading. Your engine does not care what the temperature on your coolant gauge says, it cares only about the core temperature of its oil and components.
What you believe to be concocted theory is actually very basic thermodynamic LAW put to use. These LAWS back experimental proof of **** performance that sets you up for the scenario in which you take this car out on the salt and **** up your engine despite all the Kool-Aint still in it and an unalarming readout on your coolant temperature. I'm sure tons of people use it for basic non-demanding applications. But let's see how many testimonials you can find from anyone really pushing an extremely knock-sensitive, high specific output, high compression, boosted engine to the limit for any appreciable period of time.
If you plan to beat your car to death for miles at a time, I hope you at least give it a fighting chance and install the coldest thermostat you can find along with a tune adjustment to bring the fans on mega early. Also please datalog and share your results. best of luck to you!
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