I have been thinking about doing the ATP upgraded turbos for my 2011 PP SHO. but what exactly else must I do? I know ill need a custom tune at a dyno shop but what about the fuel system and the aluminum block? Will I need a meth kit to help keep everything cool? Please help. Thanks.
Upgraded turbos information.
- Thread starter Corey Sig
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Nope, no need for extras with the big turbos UNLESS you want to use their max capabilities. You can achieve the same power levels as stock turbos but with less boost, so that's what I'd aim for. You will want to dyno the SHO for best results/tune, or you can go through successive refinements remotely with tuners such as Unleashed or LET. In fact, since LME has experience with ATP turbos also, they may be able to give you a tune that accounts for these turbos without the need for a dyno.
So, no fear
If you do decide to make ridiculous gobs of power/torque, at the very least you will need new bolts for the cylinder heads, maybe some internal upgrades (crank/pistons/etc) also. Cooling upgrades (trans/oil) and meth injection will help at ANY power level, so ...
So, no fear
If you do decide to make ridiculous gobs of power/torque, at the very least you will need new bolts for the cylinder heads, maybe some internal upgrades (crank/pistons/etc) also. Cooling upgrades (trans/oil) and meth injection will help at ANY power level, so ...
bpd1151
Lurking Around
As the 2nd person to have installed the ATP turbo upgrades into/onto an Ecoboost power plant, I feel confident confirming the info/comments that Manu (SHOdded) posted.
It's certainly not necessary to upgrade anything further, but it wouldn't make sense to not do so. Why? Because you wouldn't be taking advantage of all the benefits the ATP's can provide you as far as performance.
That said, a revised tune at the bare minimum would be suggested.
Upgrading fuel system? Absolutely not necessary. Even with my built block, running meth, custom tune, etc. I am still running on the OEM fuel system.
It's not necessary to run the Methanol either, but even on a completely factory set up (OEM turbo's included) average Meth users have seen a drop of .4-.6 in the 1/4 mile. So that alone is HUGE.
Understand, that once you throw the upgraded turbo's on, you're beginning down a path, that will inevitably cause a chain reaction of other mods.
Adding a revised tune to take advantage of the ATP's, will likely cause you to invest in the hard pipes to avoid split factory piping, and/or expansion of the factory piping under boost conditions.
The 3bar MapV sensor in order for the ECM to read beyond the 2bar and adjust/compensate accordingly.
Adding the auxiliary coolers found on the 2013+ pp equipped cars would be of benefit to help everything run cooler. No further explanation necessary.
And finally, upgrading the block? Again, not necessary, as others who've preceeded you, have shown on the modded Eco's, that the 3.5L block is surprisingly stout and can handle the additional power.
Now is it suggested to harden the internals, and strengthen things like the main head bolts, etc. ?
Yes if you're looking for long term longevity and reassurance once you've began travelling down that road as I mentioned above. But again not necessary.
You're best bet, is to figure out what your ultimate goals are, and to understand that each mod addition is just another piece of the overall equation.
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
Best of luck in your EB powered whip!
It's certainly not necessary to upgrade anything further, but it wouldn't make sense to not do so. Why? Because you wouldn't be taking advantage of all the benefits the ATP's can provide you as far as performance.
That said, a revised tune at the bare minimum would be suggested.
Upgrading fuel system? Absolutely not necessary. Even with my built block, running meth, custom tune, etc. I am still running on the OEM fuel system.
It's not necessary to run the Methanol either, but even on a completely factory set up (OEM turbo's included) average Meth users have seen a drop of .4-.6 in the 1/4 mile. So that alone is HUGE.
Understand, that once you throw the upgraded turbo's on, you're beginning down a path, that will inevitably cause a chain reaction of other mods.
Adding a revised tune to take advantage of the ATP's, will likely cause you to invest in the hard pipes to avoid split factory piping, and/or expansion of the factory piping under boost conditions.
The 3bar MapV sensor in order for the ECM to read beyond the 2bar and adjust/compensate accordingly.
Adding the auxiliary coolers found on the 2013+ pp equipped cars would be of benefit to help everything run cooler. No further explanation necessary.
And finally, upgrading the block? Again, not necessary, as others who've preceeded you, have shown on the modded Eco's, that the 3.5L block is surprisingly stout and can handle the additional power.
Now is it suggested to harden the internals, and strengthen things like the main head bolts, etc. ?
Yes if you're looking for long term longevity and reassurance once you've began travelling down that road as I mentioned above. But again not necessary.
You're best bet, is to figure out what your ultimate goals are, and to understand that each mod addition is just another piece of the overall equation.
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
Best of luck in your EB powered whip!
summerplace
New Member
summerplace
New Member
If you upgrade the turbos you must do the following: 1.Tune 2. Because they don't make a fuel management system that will keep up with the increase in fuel demand you need to install meth Kit. 3. Exhaust system upgrade to include larger "downpipes". 4. Keep the boost around 16-18 if you want longevity for the engine. When this is all done you should see at least 4-450 Hp at the rear wheels. 500 + under the hood. Good Luck.
White Beast
Member
I suggest if you are reaching over 500awhp as a goal to look into an alternative fueling system of some sort. The stock block will hold the boost IF you have the correct fueling. I am running 23psi - 588awhp - 650awtrq with my stock block. I am using an 100% E85 AUX fuel setup (10k miles and its my DD with that tune). Hard piping and an upgraded intercooler will help as well.
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Hey guys,
So to kind of "horse's mouth" answer this;
There are several upgrades that need to be done for a turbo upgrade to be a serious consideration.
- MyCal Tuner
- Windstorm CAI
- EvenFlo 160° Tstat
- 3 BAR MAP Sensor
- Thunderstorm Downpipes
- Thunderstorm CatBack
- Snowstorm "Alky" Methanol Injection System
- Powerstorm Extreme Series 3.5L Engine
All of those mods are needed to actually use the turbo upgrade. The turbo kit needs more air in(CAI), and it needs to be able to spit out a ton more air(DP+CB). The radiator and block temps will skyrocket with the additional boost hence why you need the 160°tstat. We need to be able to measure, map and apply higher levels of boost, and that is what the MAP sensor is made for. There is no such thing as an AUX fuel system for the EcoBoost platform, and this is why we use the methanol injection kit. Trying to make power like this w/ a DD on a stock block is asking for trouble. There are stand-alone systems, but not an AUX system for the Taurus.
The one mod that was mentioned here that does NOT need to be done is the hard charge pipe "upgrade". This is not an upgrade at all...don't believe me? Ask the WR holder how having a hard pipe system hooked up turns out. Does the stock stuff look ugly, sure. Is it worth adding a cool looking hard piping kit that will not add any performance, but will cause issues at any respectable power level? Not to this guy!
sticks1680
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So for a roughly 10k investment. How much extra HP will you achieve?
Pohnz-1
bpd1151
Lurking Around
FYI, I tried calling BOTH the shop, & a few cell phones, PRIOR TO posting what I am below. I got nothing but VM across the board.
So, that said......
Totally unsure where this info derived from, in regards to the hard pipes.
I haven't had any issues with mine since their install. Neither directly, or as a result of their use.
What I have experienced though, is a lot of reassurance that the factory rubber bends won't split & crack, like so many others have experienced. Especially when one factors in the higher boost levels mentioned.
The added bonus of course for me, being the eye candy which is nearly as important to me as is the "performance".
It is well documented that use of the hard pipes never increased performance per se, but simply provided that ever needed ounce of prevention. Prevention from failure of the OEM parts.
Finally, it's important to note, that these pipes were in use, when the WR was achieved.
Not sure what else to say, other than to possibly suggest checking with the vehicle owner first before posting????
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So, that said......
Totally unsure where this info derived from, in regards to the hard pipes.
I haven't had any issues with mine since their install. Neither directly, or as a result of their use.
What I have experienced though, is a lot of reassurance that the factory rubber bends won't split & crack, like so many others have experienced. Especially when one factors in the higher boost levels mentioned.
The added bonus of course for me, being the eye candy which is nearly as important to me as is the "performance".
It is well documented that use of the hard pipes never increased performance per se, but simply provided that ever needed ounce of prevention. Prevention from failure of the OEM parts.
Finally, it's important to note, that these pipes were in use, when the WR was achieved.
Not sure what else to say, other than to possibly suggest checking with the vehicle owner first before posting????
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The AUX fuel system is available, and adds PFI capabilities to the DI platform. Contact EcoPowerParts or Black Market Racing for details on how this works. Ford is now doing this OEM with the new GT.
Can't speculate as to when/at what power level the AUX system is needed. Bpd is running his SHO with the stock system+meth injection, so there are many ways to the promised land. If you run E85 though, you will definitely need to upgrade the fuel pump at least, if not the injectors.
Can't speculate as to when/at what power level the AUX system is needed. Bpd is running his SHO with the stock system+meth injection, so there are many ways to the promised land. If you run E85 though, you will definitely need to upgrade the fuel pump at least, if not the injectors.
White Beast
Member
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I was here when we had to replace parts while the car was on the dyno. The hard piping system is also supposed to be on your list of parts to change for next season. That is because they do not allow the entire system to flex. At that power level there is a ton of excess stress on the OEM rubber parts when there is a harder material present leveraging its transferred kinetic energy. Thus, the reason that you want to avoid adding hard pipes for a build of that caliber.
Ford is NOT using anything anywhere near this setup at all whatsoever on the new GT. As per usual we cannot share our insider information, BUT if you happened to read the thread a few weeks ago where someone brought up this topic I made sure to emphasize the fact that the GT is going to utilize a completely different set of "systemS". The emphasis that I placed went completely unnoticed.
Adding something like a standalone fueling system like a megasquirt for example is not practical for a street car. That is what the OP is talking about! Stay on track. There is not a way for a STREET CAR to upgrade its fuel system. There is no way to add an in tank upgraded fuel pump like you can on a Gen 5+ Camaro. There is no in line solution like there is for a C7 Corvette. There is no bolt on pump that you can add like on the Raptor trucks, and even in this example we are the ONLY solution for this modification. Changing out the LPFP is going to do ZERO for you. Changing out the HPFP is going to do ZERO for you as well, because the real issue is that there is a metering system that bases the car's fueling output from how quickly it can measure the revolutions of the last lobe of the camshaft. This "meter" is an internal component that cannot be modified to allow for faster readings. There is for lack of a better word a plunger that rests on that lobe of the cam, and the HPFP delivers fueling based upon its movement. There is no way to increase the "plunger" travel either.
@White Beast, sweet looking pump...it really is.
We have already explored that option, and the same goes for "better" injectors. We have looked into larger fuel rails too. The problem with respect to like a larger rail is that if you deplete the supply in the rail you have now starved the engine and are asking for turrible things to occur. Is that worth it for a street car, of course not.
That is the thing to remember here guys, the OP is asking about his 4400lb family sedan. It is not a grand touring car.
They are not equal.
Don't get me wrong, is it amazing that we can exponentially magnify the capabilities of this COMPLETELY unassuming family hauler? ABSOLUTELY!
For what it is the platform is on another universe! To think that a little 3.5L transverse turbo car can run with its Euro sport sedan competitors is amazing. Nobody can argue that!
White Beast
Member
Hard pipe issue : very interesting point. Couldn't we just make better motor mounts? What other rubber parts do you speak of.I was here when we had to replace parts while the car was on the dyno. The hard piping system is also supposed to be on your list of parts to change for next season. That is because they do not allow the entire system to flex. At that power level there is a ton of excess stress on the OEM rubber parts when there is a harder material present leveraging its transferred kinetic energy. Thus, the reason that you want to avoid adding hard pipes for a build of that caliber.
Ford is NOT using anything anywhere near this setup at all whatsoever on the new GT. As per usual we cannot share our insider information, BUT if you happened to read the thread a few weeks ago where someone brought up this topic I made sure to emphasize the fact that the GT is going to utilize a completely different set of "systemS". The emphasis that I placed went completely unnoticed.
Adding something like a standalone fueling system like a megasquirt for example is not practical for a street car. That is what the OP is talking about! Stay on track. There is not a way for a STREET CAR to upgrade its fuel system. There is no way to add an in tank upgraded fuel pump like you can on a Gen 5+ Camaro. There is no in line solution like there is for a C7 Corvette. There is no bolt on pump that you can add like on the Raptor trucks, and even in this example we are the ONLY solution for this modification. Changing out the LPFP is going to do ZERO for you. Changing out the HPFP is going to do ZERO for you as well, because the real issue is that there is a metering system that bases the car's fueling output from how quickly it can measure the revolutions of the last lobe of the camshaft. This "meter" is an internal component that cannot be modified to allow for faster readings. There is for lack of a better word a plunger that rests on that lobe of the cam, and the HPFP delivers fueling based upon its movement. There is no way to increase the "plunger" travel either.
@White Beast, sweet looking pump...it really is.
We have already explored that option, and the same goes for "better" injectors. We have looked into larger fuel rails too. The problem with respect to like a larger rail is that if you deplete the supply in the rail you have now starved the engine and are asking for turrible things to occur. Is that worth it for a street car, of course not.
That is the thing to remember here guys, the OP is asking about his 4400lb family sedan. It is not a grand touring car.
They are not equal.
Don't get me wrong, is it amazing that we can exponentially magnify the capabilities of this COMPLETELY unassuming family hauler? ABSOLUTELY!
For what it is the platform is on another universe! To think that a little 3.5L transverse turbo car can run with its Euro sport sedan competitors is amazing. Nobody can argue that!
Seeing how I am the only one running this AUX fuel system I am very interested in your research. Would like to understand more about how I can fail.
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Could you make better mounts, sure. The logical reasoning as to why there are no parts like that in existence right now is that the platform is:
A) Limited. The SHO/MKS model is a limited production vehicle off the bat.
B) The chassis and platform is exceptionally strong and flexible in it's capabilities. As many like yourself and Mike have proven already with your builds.
C) The platform's owners are 80% get in and drive owners. They will never invest more than good gas, good quality fluids and maybe a panel filter. The drivers that actually care about performance is the remaining 20%. NOW, of that 20% of the owners...there are what MAYBE 5% that want more performance than the average bear? And now of that 5%, how many want to push the platform to its limits? MAYBE 1%? See where I'm going with this? There just aren't enough guys out there that actually want to take their car, and toe that line of failure. Nobody else has taken the entire platform and pushed it to the limit that we have. All of that takes YEARS of devotion, dollars and testing. There is far more involved than sitting behind a computer and messing around with 0's and 1's. Not to mention that on top of all of our tuning accomplishments what about parts? Where are all of the part developers? We have devoted more quality and proven parts than anyone as well. There have been a dozen or so companies that have dipped their toe into the pool and ran. Just search this forum...at the first sight of hard times they grabbed the life vests. We not only kept working, but devoted even more manpower to adapt and overcome.
A) Limited. The SHO/MKS model is a limited production vehicle off the bat.
B) The chassis and platform is exceptionally strong and flexible in it's capabilities. As many like yourself and Mike have proven already with your builds.
C) The platform's owners are 80% get in and drive owners. They will never invest more than good gas, good quality fluids and maybe a panel filter. The drivers that actually care about performance is the remaining 20%. NOW, of that 20% of the owners...there are what MAYBE 5% that want more performance than the average bear? And now of that 5%, how many want to push the platform to its limits? MAYBE 1%? See where I'm going with this? There just aren't enough guys out there that actually want to take their car, and toe that line of failure. Nobody else has taken the entire platform and pushed it to the limit that we have. All of that takes YEARS of devotion, dollars and testing. There is far more involved than sitting behind a computer and messing around with 0's and 1's. Not to mention that on top of all of our tuning accomplishments what about parts? Where are all of the part developers? We have devoted more quality and proven parts than anyone as well. There have been a dozen or so companies that have dipped their toe into the pool and ran. Just search this forum...at the first sight of hard times they grabbed the life vests. We not only kept working, but devoted even more manpower to adapt and overcome.
White Beast
Member
I understand we are in custom territory and probably no one else will reach these limits. If I was located in the Midwest I would be your #1 customer for the SHO. Unfortunately I am in AZ. Tons of respect for LMS.
But I am in search for the problems that are expected with my AUX fuel setup and how it might starve the motor. Would the meth setup be more prone to starve seeing how its injected in the throttle body?
We are using Pro EFI 48 to control the AUX system. It will shut down if it detects lean or loses pressure. I have witnessed it first hand during our testing and tune.
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Good to know. So we need flexible piping made of STRONGER materials, because OEM materials are definitely up to it for the longterm.
Didn't say it was the exact same thing, but I see how I could have been misconstrued. Fact is though, the GT is using DI AND PFI, unless you know it's not, and in which case, I'd like to hear about the facts.
Sorry if us noobs went off-track. I forgot talking in class is not permitted
Good info. But it points out possible solutions. Simply says the solutions won't be inexpensive.
Understood. If this were a PM or private chat, I'd completely agree. But it doesn't hurt to lay out the tree of options, possible paths to go. The OP may not be ready today, but if the possibilities are there (that he was not previously aware of), would he choose accordingly? There are other SHO enthusiasts in the audience who may not speak up, but have mused over similar, more "extreme" upgrades to their rides. Might bring in more customers, more products sold, more R&D dollars, and ultimately lower costs/higher sales. Just because the SHO is a limited production platform doesn't mean upgrades can't filter down to the lower-trimmed Taurus lineup. If someone is transplanting a 3.5EB into a Taurus SE, what all would they like to know? That's where I'm coming from.
Our system will do no such thing as we build in several fail-safes into the methanol kit so you will not see a lean situation.
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