TTAC SHO review

[All-Or-Nothing]

I knew them brakes was a product of Ford going cheap. They never really give 100% on a car. Makes it easy for them to nickel and dime us to death on upgades and better parts.


Still waiting to buy mines. Then it's off to Hennessey we go.

 

[HotRodKid]

I take you've never driven a SHO with proper suspension? It would down right surprise you.

surprise is not the word

proper suspension + Somedude001 behind the wheel = wonder if the pavement will survive whats about to be done

case in point: the squidgy widgy expressway through buffalo :woo-hoo:

 

[NEp8ntballer]

I knew them brakes was a product of Ford going cheap. They never really give 100% on a car. Makes it easy for them to nickel and dime us to death on upgades and better parts.


Still waiting to buy mines. Then it's off to Hennessey we go.

Let me know when that happens so I can start a betting pool for how long it will take for you to see it again. I'll put $25 on never.

 

[All-Or-Nothing]

Let you know when what happens???

 

[38SHO]

if you mean by proper suspension you mean coilovers then no.......

but I gurantee you I won't be that damn suprised, because it is still a SHO with the same suspension design, the same body, the same weight, the same balance.....

 

[typhoon5000]

$5K? That's bull.

As I said before, that includes Brembo and Ford making a profit off of it, which adds to the cost. Now I think $5k is a bit outrageous too, but that is what the engineer said. Trust me, Ford engineers are trying to make awesome cars, but in these times of tight budgets, the bean counters win the fight every time.

 

[HotRodKid]

$5K? That's bull. Brembo has enough stock that I'm sure an application could be adapted for the SHO without much R&D. The V series has Brembos as well. A replacement caliper is about $200. 4 pistons front and back.

I predict TCE will have some SHO brakes developed within a couple months...

you find it hard to beleive a complete set of brakes, from brembo, would cost $5000?

really ?

FRONT brembos for a c6 corvette are $2100, $3500 if you get the 6 pots

so lets examine what would make a set of FACTORY brakes from brembo add up to $5000 per car:

the brake kit itself, lets say it would cost $3000 if you bought it from XYZperformanceauto.com to add to your car

now add the cost of manking that $3000 brake kit live up to FORDS requirements, ad $500 per set for upgraded seals, upgraded surface finishing, upgraded wear characteristics

now add time for training the assembly line guys to install the parts

now add time for the guys who write the books to add the sho brakes in

now add carrying costs for inventory (at ford)

now add carrying costs for inventory (at brembo)

now add costs because brembo has to make sure they get the parts made according to FORDS schedule, because the assembly line waits for noone

now add costs of testing more sho's under all possible conditions to make sure the brakes work perfectly at all times

now add costs of redesigning / reprogramming the ABS to work w/ the new brakes

now add time ....

i think you get the point ...

 

[thebigjimsho]

you find it hard to beleive a complete set of brakes, from brembo, would cost $5000?

really ?

FRONT brembos for a c6 corvette are $2100, $3500 if you get the 6 pots

so lets examine what would make a set of FACTORY brakes from brembo add up to $5000 per car:

the brake kit itself, lets say it would cost $3000 if you bought it from XYZperformanceauto.com to add to your car

now add the cost of manking that $3000 brake kit live up to FORDS requirements, ad $500 per set for upgraded seals, upgraded surface finishing, upgraded wear characteristics

now add time for training the assembly line guys to install the parts

now add time for the guys who write the books to add the sho brakes in

now add carrying costs for inventory (at ford)

now add carrying costs for inventory (at brembo)

now add costs because brembo has to make sure they get the parts made according to FORDS schedule, because the assembly line waits for noone

now add costs of testing more sho's under all possible conditions to make sure the brakes work perfectly at all times

now add costs of redesigning / reprogramming the ABS to work w/ the new brakes

now add time ....

i think you get the point ...

Hmmm, comparing the SHO to a C6, instead of the 6 year old V?

Making a brake kit that lives up to Ford's requirements? Isn't that the problem in the first place?

Training to install Brembo floating calipers? I guess you don't realize that the V's brakes involve 2 bolts. Yes, 2. Even if Ford employs you, I doubt it would take more than 30 seconds of training.

Carrying costs for inventory? How about you figure out how many you're going to make and call Brembo? Carrying costs for Brembo? The V carried the same front calipers as the Sti, Volvo S60 and S70(Ford products, BTW) and the Evo. You know, serious performance sedans...

All that means that Brembo probably has stock to get to Ford, you know, so that assembly line can keep going.

And with a brake system that actually works, testing is a breeze. Obviously they must not have tested the stock brakes.

Add time? You can subtract the time the brakes DON'T need to coold down.

Thanks for your retort. You just showed how little you know about having good brakes. Seems that you're not the only one...:swing:

And if you think the price we pay for aftermarket brakes is the price Ford pays to supply thousands of cars, then you don't understand cars or economics...

 

[thebigjimsho]

And again, 4 4-piston calipers costs about $1G for the V. 4 rotors cost about $600. And that's at 14" F and 14.4" R...

That's the consumer cost, a la carte...

 

[thebigjimsho]

As I said before, that includes Brembo and Ford making a profit off of it, which adds to the cost. Now I think $5k is a bit outrageous too, but that is what the engineer said. Trust me, Ford engineers are trying to make awesome cars, but in these times of tight budgets, the bean counters win the fight every time.

To give a 4400lb, 365hp missile awful brakes is a great way for the beancounters acquainted with the lawyers...

 

[DDakRT]

Hmmm, comparing the SHO to a C6, instead of the 6 year old V?

Making a brake kit that lives up to Ford's requirements? Isn't that the problem in the first place?

Training to install Brembo floating calipers? I guess you don't realize that the V's brakes involve 2 bolts. Yes, 2. Even if Ford employs you, I doubt it would take more than 30 seconds of training.

Carrying costs for inventory? How about you figure out how many you're going to make and call Brembo? Carrying costs for Brembo? The V carried the same front calipers as the Sti, Volvo S60 and S70(Ford products, BTW) and the Evo. You know, serious performance sedans...

All that means that Brembo probably has stock to get to Ford, you know, so that assembly line can keep going.

And with a brake system that actually works, testing is a breeze. Obviously they must not have tested the stock brakes.

Add time? You can subtract the time the brakes DON'T need to coold down.

Thanks for your retort. You just showed how little you know about having good brakes. Seems that you're not the only one...:swing:

And if you think the price we pay for aftermarket brakes is the price Ford pays to supply thousands of cars, then you don't understand cars or economics...

When I used to frequent Allpar, a retired engineer for Jeep used to say how expensive it was to get parts certified (terminology might be off here) by the government. You change the steering wheel, add a manual tranny, add a different set of lights, etc. All things like that needs approval and certification which runs into the millions.

Now I wonder what volume Ford is estimating the new SHO to sell at, the $5000 per car might be pretty extreme, but the actual cost per car might actually be higher than we expect.

 

[dstig1]

$5K? That's bull. QUOTE]

Not as much as you might think. Here is the Iron Clad Rule of Business Costs (if I could get a James Earl Jones WAV of that with some good reverb, that would help my cause here).

Take the factory cost of a product/component/whatever. Multiply it by 5. That is the retail price.

Argue and gnash your teeth all you want, I have been told it, seen it, and personally verified it multiple times, on products from glue to safety gear to car parts. It is a rule of thumb that is very much spot on. Businesses need to account for their costs and overhead and profit. Then they send it to a distributor - same for them. Then the final retail channel - same for them. By the time you are done, it is retail priced at 5x the cost out the factory door.

So what the Ford engineer was telling you was that Brembo was charging them $1000 for the brake package, which is Ford's "Factory cost".

Argue all you want. I know many probably will. But it is still the rule of business. Take any opportunity you have to ask someone knowledgable what it cost to make "that thing" and do the math. Are there exceptions? Sure. This is life. But this holds for just about anything sold in a conventional retail channel.

-Dave

 

[thebigjimsho]

OK, then. Ford can proceed with their crappy brakes. But their beancounters should've focused their aim on the dubs or Sony stereo. I'd rather be underpowered/overbraked than the other way around...

 

[dstig1]

Well they didn't have to use Brembos to get something decent....

 

[thebigjimsho]

of course not. but they didn't have to grab a six pack and call it a night, either...

 

[Vnuk1]

Somebody say Six Pack!?

 

[typhoon5000]

OK, then. Ford can proceed with their crappy brakes. But their beancounters should've focused their aim on the dubs or Sony stereo. I'd rather be underpowered/overbraked than the other way around...

The thing is you are the minority and big wheels and powerful stereos will sell and make much more profit for Ford and that is what Ford NEEDS right now, money, dough, $$$$, greenbacks.

You also need to spend a week at Ford in product development to grasp the epic amount of bureaucracy and standards verification that are required by Ford and the gov't for even the most minute change. Take for example, you want to change the bolt size for something, anything, on the vehicle.

You have to first make sure it will meet the application's stress requirements, this means CAE and laboratory testing.

Then you have to make sure it meets packaging requirements, which involves more than a "it fits" mentality. You have to go into the CAD and make sure nothing around it gets within a specified tolerance, usually at least 5mm, to virtually certify packaging.

Then it has to get passed by the purchasing department for cost (which can take a long time because that dept has to get quotes for every supplier they use for bolts).

Then a prototype has to be made with the change, which includes making parts with the new whole size for the new bolt and the new nut for the new bolt.

Then a production prototype must be made (as in by a supplier as if it was production, not a rapid prototype or handmade part part).

Then you have to change the tooling on the line and make sure the bolt can be assembled into the vehicle relatively quickly and easily, or at least as easy or quick as the part it's replacing so production isn't slowed. That involves running special test batches on the line, which require the regular production line to stop so that the special batch vehicles can be assembled.

And if ALL of that passes it will go into production and even after that, at full production speed on the line, you might have issues later on and find out it can't be assembled quick enough to be considered a quality job.

And this is all for a STINKIN BOLT! I'm sure I probably missed things too. Welcome to my world at Ford:wave::frantic:.

 

[hawkeye18]

Ford doesn't need to put great brakes on the car. They just need to make it so that great brakes can easily be put on the car. Ford's got bigger things to worry about. Like not going bankrupt. Just because they haven't yet doesn't mean they aren't on the razor's edge...

 

[HotRodKid]

Hmmm, comparing the SHO to a C6, instead of the 6 year old V?

Making a brake kit that lives up to Ford's requirements? Isn't that the problem in the first place?

Training to install Brembo floating calipers? I guess you don't realize that the V's brakes involve 2 bolts. Yes, 2. Even if Ford employs you, I doubt it would take more than 30 seconds of training.

Carrying costs for inventory? How about you figure out how many you're going to make and call Brembo? Carrying costs for Brembo? The V carried the same front calipers as the Sti, Volvo S60 and S70(Ford products, BTW) and the Evo. You know, serious performance sedans...

All that means that Brembo probably has stock to get to Ford, you know, so that assembly line can keep going.

And with a brake system that actually works, testing is a breeze. Obviously they must not have tested the stock brakes.

Add time? You can subtract the time the brakes DON'T need to coold down.

Thanks for your retort. You just showed how little you know about having good brakes. Seems that you're not the only one...:swing:

And if you think the price we pay for aftermarket brakes is the price Ford pays to supply thousands of cars, then you don't understand cars or economics...

i compared the sho to the first set of brembo brakes that came up on google search

by living up to their requirements i did NOT mean "stops as good as they wanted"

training: 30 seconds? is that why a retooled factory requires multiple pre-production cars to be run down the line to iron out the kinks of assembly? Last i heard it was batches of 10 cars, and they get assembled / stripped back down so many times they become garbage and are therefore crushed

Carrying costs for inventory: if ford orders 1000 sets of calipers, thats 1000 more calipers brembo has to have, because they cant use calipers that were made because of a contract w/ someone else, thats shelf space, employees and equipment for 1000 more sets of calipers, which costs money. inventory is NOT free to have sitting around

then you don't understand cars or economics... actually i do understand the economics of production.

make one of something, it might cost $1000
make 2 of something, each might cost $900
make 3 of something, each might cost $850
make 4 of something, your down to $825 each
make 1000 of something, your down to $700 each

theres no equal and opposite reaction to production costs.