shojuan
New Member
You beat me to it Lance, while I was typing mine. And you said it better! thumbs_u
SHO Stopper Jr, info and pricing!
- Thread starter Todd TCE
- Start date
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Let's start by going back a bit on what I've already said about the package.
If you are expecting top end 13" SHO Stopper performance on this, it ain't happening. The kit is limited by the fact you have chosen to run the 96 rotor. You can't make something what it can't be.
The benefits of the set up include what is listed above and stated pretty well. If you are looking for me to make bold statements about this kit to be the best thing on the market for braking you'll be disappointed. What I will say is that it's an excellent upgrade to the limited package you already have.
And Lance, while I agree with much of what you've contributed here, I take issue with some of your first statements. "While they are expensive"?? You need to get out and shop some calipers. This is about as good as it gets for four piston radial mount calipers. Don't compare them to some part without the proper brackets either. The NDLs sell for about $175ea and the sealed DPs for $300ea.
The swept area question won't say much for the performance of the kit. Swept area means little in the real world aside from the wear rate of the pad. But yes, the pads in both are probably smaller in PAD AREA than the stock ones. Swept area is not equated in the formula for brake torque.
Just keeping the info line open.
If you are expecting top end 13" SHO Stopper performance on this, it ain't happening. The kit is limited by the fact you have chosen to run the 96 rotor. You can't make something what it can't be.
The benefits of the set up include what is listed above and stated pretty well. If you are looking for me to make bold statements about this kit to be the best thing on the market for braking you'll be disappointed. What I will say is that it's an excellent upgrade to the limited package you already have.
And Lance, while I agree with much of what you've contributed here, I take issue with some of your first statements. "While they are expensive"?? You need to get out and shop some calipers. This is about as good as it gets for four piston radial mount calipers. Don't compare them to some part without the proper brackets either. The NDLs sell for about $175ea and the sealed DPs for $300ea.
The swept area question won't say much for the performance of the kit. Swept area means little in the real world aside from the wear rate of the pad. But yes, the pads in both are probably smaller in PAD AREA than the stock ones. Swept area is not equated in the formula for brake torque.
Just keeping the info line open.
Chris Benvie
Every so often
"Ok, so how much? Target price for the RNDL is $550 and the DP set up $700. ALL PRICES YET TO BE FINALIZED."
Um i think since there is no real improvement in stopping, I'll stick with just a 96 upgrade, its a few hundred dollars cheaper and I'm really not worried about my dustboots burning off considering I have never heard of this and mine are find. What you are basing your sales on are the wrong things.
You are marketing what will not break when the majority of us, havn't has these problems. I think that yes the 4-*** design is nice, but not worth spend a few extra hundred bucks.
Yes your brakes are lighter than a 13" rotor, but I'd rather have my car stop better than belighter, I can make up for weight reduction somewhere else. I'd rather spend that kinda money on a 13" rotor or save a few more hundred for a Bear setup
And then again, to each his own, just my .02
Um i think since there is no real improvement in stopping, I'll stick with just a 96 upgrade, its a few hundred dollars cheaper and I'm really not worried about my dustboots burning off considering I have never heard of this and mine are find. What you are basing your sales on are the wrong things.
You are marketing what will not break when the majority of us, havn't has these problems. I think that yes the 4-*** design is nice, but not worth spend a few extra hundred bucks.
Yes your brakes are lighter than a 13" rotor, but I'd rather have my car stop better than belighter, I can make up for weight reduction somewhere else. I'd rather spend that kinda money on a 13" rotor or save a few more hundred for a Bear setup
And then again, to each his own, just my .02
Had you been following the entire thread here you'd find the exact numbers you are looking for are posted.
The improvements are real, just not to the level of the larger kits. I think most folks are quite aware of this. If you've never burned off the dust boots that's great, just be known that many have and subject their car to extended high end use.
As for the marketing angle, I think I'm dead on to what the market wants and needs to add enhancement to a kit already on the market. This level of improvement is akin to suggesting that there is no real need to upgrade the existing brakes to the 96 as they worked ok too. Many owners chose this over the complete kit from me or others, but now long for another step up the food chain.
Regarding the level of performance gains, the size of the rotor is simply the major limit to what can be achieved here. If this is not true what do you think makes the 96 package so attractive? Certainly not the calipers or pads. Now lets carry it one step further and enhance what we already have. Rubber hoses did a fine job of moving fluid, so why step up to SS? I'm looking for any way to beat this analogy into people...!
I strongly suspect you may change your way of thinking about all of this once you drive one. But if you pass, that's ok too.
The improvements are real, just not to the level of the larger kits. I think most folks are quite aware of this. If you've never burned off the dust boots that's great, just be known that many have and subject their car to extended high end use.
As for the marketing angle, I think I'm dead on to what the market wants and needs to add enhancement to a kit already on the market. This level of improvement is akin to suggesting that there is no real need to upgrade the existing brakes to the 96 as they worked ok too. Many owners chose this over the complete kit from me or others, but now long for another step up the food chain.
Regarding the level of performance gains, the size of the rotor is simply the major limit to what can be achieved here. If this is not true what do you think makes the 96 package so attractive? Certainly not the calipers or pads. Now lets carry it one step further and enhance what we already have. Rubber hoses did a fine job of moving fluid, so why step up to SS? I'm looking for any way to beat this analogy into people...!
I strongly suspect you may change your way of thinking about all of this once you drive one. But if you pass, that's ok too.
Lance Cheney
SHO Member
Todd wrote:
If this kit had been available a year and a half ago when I did the '96+ upgrade initially, I wouldn't have even hesitated, as the slight price difference would be WELL worth the results. Darn!
I'm really curious why everyone keeps talking about 'braking distances'. I can't imagine anyone with decent pads being brake-limited on a '96+ upgrade. Even with race tires on my car I have no problems with getting enough braking force to kick the ABS on, time and time again on the track. With street tires and my lower-end pads it's a joke -- the biggest problem is modulating it so that the ABS doesn't kick on.
You can run 13" rotors with a mild street pad and still get bad fade, or better, (as I've seen many people do) destroy a set of street pads in one day of track driving.
Of course, if you're running exclusively on the street then these brakes are overkill. But they perform, and the incremental cost over the normal '96+ upgrade is pretty low if you have to get reman calipers anyway.
-Lance
Yes, you're correct. The kit is very reasonably priced. It is mainly expensive to me only because I already have the '96+ upgrade, AND $300 in two sets of race pads invested already.
If this kit had been available a year and a half ago when I did the '96+ upgrade initially, I wouldn't have even hesitated, as the slight price difference would be WELL worth the results. Darn!
I'm really curious why everyone keeps talking about 'braking distances'. I can't imagine anyone with decent pads being brake-limited on a '96+ upgrade. Even with race tires on my car I have no problems with getting enough braking force to kick the ABS on, time and time again on the track. With street tires and my lower-end pads it's a joke -- the biggest problem is modulating it so that the ABS doesn't kick on.
You can run 13" rotors with a mild street pad and still get bad fade, or better, (as I've seen many people do) destroy a set of street pads in one day of track driving.
Of course, if you're running exclusively on the street then these brakes are overkill. But they perform, and the incremental cost over the normal '96+ upgrade is pretty low if you have to get reman calipers anyway.
-Lance
Dave Kegel
New Member
Todd's brakes are mainly for those that spend some time on the track. The '96 brakes do not hold up very well if you drive aggressivley on the track. The pads will come out looking like a potato chip, due to the single piston. If you strictly drive your car ont he street then you probably don't need to spend the money, but don't assume the '96 brakes are adequate for everyone, they're not, by a long shot.
A side note... With my stock 10" brakes and carbon metallic pads, I went through an entire set (front and rear) of brake pads in ONE HOUR of track time. I melted the dust boots on the front AND back calipers, and even melted the rubber ball joint boots on the lower control arms. So different people have different brake needs.
Dave Kegel
'93 MTX
Dave Kegel
New Member
Lance, Are you sure it's not the REAR brakes setting off the ABS? As I'm sure you know, all the weight goes to the front under braking. The rear's almost always lock up.
Also, with ABS you don't want to be doing any modulating. That will only increase your braking distance. Just stand on the brakes and let the ABS do it's job. Either that, or disconnect it for track duty and THEN do your modulating.
Dave Kegel
I can confirm that neither of these caliper kits will fit the stock slicer without .300" of wheel spacer and proper studs. Sorry, blame it on Ford!
Cannot move any of the rest of it around to fit unless we do hats and rotors etc. and this simply leads us to the SHO Stopper kits. (which can be fit with the DP for about $350 more)
I do not see problems with this on many aftermarket wheels or larger 17s which are more brake friendly. ****, I got my 16" TSW blades on the normal kit years ago with the hats cut back down to normal spec! No spacer at all as in the base SHO Stopper kit. It's the wheel folks.
Cannot move any of the rest of it around to fit unless we do hats and rotors etc. and this simply leads us to the SHO Stopper kits. (which can be fit with the DP for about $350 more)
I do not see problems with this on many aftermarket wheels or larger 17s which are more brake friendly. ****, I got my 16" TSW blades on the normal kit years ago with the hats cut back down to normal spec! No spacer at all as in the base SHO Stopper kit. It's the wheel folks.
Mike Kopstain
New Member
Thanks Lance, you pretty much covered all the bases there.
Lance Cheney
SHO Member
Dave Kegel wrote:
When I had first purchased the XP pads I had not bedded them at all (oops), and the first two sessions at Laguna I wasn't able to get sufficient force to kick on the ABS. After two hard sessions I was getting enough increased force to do it. But whether that was because I was getting more weight transfer off the back as the fronts got better or simply because the fronts were working enough better to kick on the ABS, I will never know.
-Lance
This is a good question -- I had this discussion on the BaySHO mailing list as well. There really isn't any way to know for sure, but if you ride with me you'll at least see that they work extremely well. If it's really the rears kicking it off, then it's a point pretty close to where the fronts are going to lose traction as well. The rear pads are just a standard semi-metallic and they don't get real hot.
When I had first purchased the XP pads I had not bedded them at all (oops), and the first two sessions at Laguna I wasn't able to get sufficient force to kick on the ABS. After two hard sessions I was getting enough increased force to do it. But whether that was because I was getting more weight transfer off the back as the fronts got better or simply because the fronts were working enough better to kick on the ABS, I will never know.
To an extent I agree with this. But it has been shown that you can get better stopping distances on dry pavement without the ABS interfering. One of the things I've found is that if I 'stab' the brakes the ABS will kick in almost immediately and you'll have a good second of almost no stopping before it starts to mellow out a little bit. If you don't overdo it to start with, then it won't interfere as much. (and no, it's not the pads heating up -- they have pretty good cold friction) The same thing shows up on street tires, but much worse. Smooth is, of course, as with most things in track driving, the key.
-Lance
This is an open forum, so here's my .02. Last summer I did the 11.6 inch disc with the dual piston PBR calipers and SS brake lines. I was and am very pleased. I'm sorry to say that I didn't do any before/after stopping distances, but nobody else does anyway. My point is this: if you do the 96 upgrade, you're not really interested in racing, except for maybe an auto cross here and a track day there. The 96 set up is a good upgrade fo street/ocassional track use, and the PBR dual piston floating design is more than adequate to handle light competition use. I can't discount the quality of the Wilwoods, because I don't have any experience with them and I know that they have an oustanding reputation. You must remember, however, that SVT felt PBR to be a good enough manufacturer to make stock Cobra brakes. Chevorlet also felt that these PBR calipers were good enough to put on 175 mph Corvettes. And, there are many, many, many pad options which are competatively priced for the PBRs. The calipers and brackets were shipped to my door for $291, but some machine shop work (about $50) was needed to adapt the caliper bracket to the 94/95 knuckle. You could easily come out for $350-375 with a setup comparable to what has been made by TCE, I think. (Obviously I'm not a brake engineer, and Todd will probably be able to shoot down most of what I have typed with convincing evidence to back himself up.) That said, I have spoken with Todd about doing brake upgrades before, and he seems to be a nice guy that really puts out very good products. I'm sure that the quality of his product will be high and well done. I just can't help but wonder where the improvements will be felt.
Very well put in fact. Your feedback is true in many ways.
The main difference you feel in what you have now comes from the piston area. The increase in brake torque is part pad and part rotor diameter.
The choice of PBRs over others in the street market is quite simple; cost, adaptability, wheel clearance, life cycle,and tollerant of run out better than fixed designs.
There is nothing wrong with floating calipers in some ways, but there flaws tend to be in sticking sliders, flex problems (also on fixed designs depending upon the caliper)and what I call caliper efficiency. The floater relies on mechanical leverage to 'pull' the outer pad in contact with the rotor, where as the fixed simply applies direct pad pressure to the rotor sooner or in a more positive manner. Less wasted energy or movement. No, I can't seem to find a way to show this exactly but it's there.
Now the Vette has its nay sayers too, or there would not be kits like the new Wilwood one to help those folks who claim their brakes suck compared to aftermarket designs! Can you say cost savings??
I feel the real benefit of this caliper or caliper options will be in efficiancy and torque. Less wasted motion and more direct impact. The pad sellection for the aftermarket is actually much larger than the PBR if you dig a bit. I have 8 compound alone for the NDL and 4 to start with the DP. That's just one manufacture! Don't get me wrong here, the 96 is a fine set up and a modest priced package. The intent is to improve upon that a bit and take it to the next level.
Sorry no spell check.
The main difference you feel in what you have now comes from the piston area. The increase in brake torque is part pad and part rotor diameter.
The choice of PBRs over others in the street market is quite simple; cost, adaptability, wheel clearance, life cycle,and tollerant of run out better than fixed designs.
There is nothing wrong with floating calipers in some ways, but there flaws tend to be in sticking sliders, flex problems (also on fixed designs depending upon the caliper)and what I call caliper efficiency. The floater relies on mechanical leverage to 'pull' the outer pad in contact with the rotor, where as the fixed simply applies direct pad pressure to the rotor sooner or in a more positive manner. Less wasted energy or movement. No, I can't seem to find a way to show this exactly but it's there.
Now the Vette has its nay sayers too, or there would not be kits like the new Wilwood one to help those folks who claim their brakes suck compared to aftermarket designs! Can you say cost savings??
I feel the real benefit of this caliper or caliper options will be in efficiancy and torque. Less wasted motion and more direct impact. The pad sellection for the aftermarket is actually much larger than the PBR if you dig a bit. I have 8 compound alone for the NDL and 4 to start with the DP. That's just one manufacture! Don't get me wrong here, the 96 is a fine set up and a modest priced package. The intent is to improve upon that a bit and take it to the next level.
Sorry no spell check.
I didn't mean to knock your package, and the more I think about it the nicer it would be to have a 4 piston caliper. I do appreciate the fact the there is someone still making any upgrades for the SHO at all. Probably, if I had to do it all over again and had the money, I'd love to have installed a more simple package on my 91 than go about it the trial and error way that I did. I forget that some of the price is for all of engineering work that went into making a package.
I didn't mean to knock your package, and the more I think about it the nicer it would be to have a 4 piston caliper. I do appreciate the fact the there is someone still making any upgrades for the SHO at all. Probably, if I had to do it all over again and had the money, I'd love to have installed a more simple package on my 91 than go about it the trial and error way that I did. I forget that some of the price is for all of engineering work that went into making a package.
THE Shobra
SHO Member
To me this sounds like a great deal if your planing on sticking with smaller rotors (not 13s). I wonder how this would compare, (apple vs orange I know) to the 13" rotor and the PBR at a price level of lets say $600-700?
Shoaz
Studly dood
I have a 95 with the 96 upgrade that sees regular track time and is also my daily driver. The 96 upgrade is suitable for the track if you drive it accordingly; it's better than the stock rotors, especially with good pads (and I just use the cheapie PF stuff), but they ain't racing brakes.
Even if you want to go to the track you can use the 96 upgrade, and it will be better than the stock equipment. Todd's improved calipers on the 96 rotors will help even more, though, and clearly bigger rotors is the obvious thing to do if you really want the best performance braking on the track.
The choice is always about what you really want to do and how much you want to spend. I'm using the 96 upgrade just because it's good bang for limited bucks, especially for a car that is still a daily driver. You can't hammer them mindlessly on a course that is ******* brakes, but if you manage them carefully they work fine. The car can definitely use more brakes at the track, though, and for those willing to spend the additional bucks Todd is helping us out by providing another step along the way if you don't want to make the leap all the way to 13" rotors, etc., etc.
For the near future I want to keep the stock slicer wheels just because one of the things I like best about taking the SHO to the track is the sleeper effect. Nobody expects a stock-looking Taurus to do much. Custom wheels with big brakes behind them give too much away. wink
So it's always a tradeoff of what you want and what you want to spend. Todd's suggested mod is a good (and reasonably obvious, from an engineering perspective) step between the 96 upgrade and full SHOstoppers or Baers with bigger rotors.
For my purposes (including track time) I'll keep the 96 upgrade until I get to the point that I'm ready for large diameter wheels with low-profile tires, and then get the best big rotor kit I can find (probably SHOstoppers w/13" rotors).
Todd's proposed kit fills a very nice step in between, especially if you have custom 16" (non-slicer) rims that you like and want to keep. I'm guessing they'll rock.
Anyway, just wanted to say it for those questioning the utility. It's good to support folks like Todd who go out of their way to give us good, sensible options like this.
Even if you want to go to the track you can use the 96 upgrade, and it will be better than the stock equipment. Todd's improved calipers on the 96 rotors will help even more, though, and clearly bigger rotors is the obvious thing to do if you really want the best performance braking on the track.
The choice is always about what you really want to do and how much you want to spend. I'm using the 96 upgrade just because it's good bang for limited bucks, especially for a car that is still a daily driver. You can't hammer them mindlessly on a course that is ******* brakes, but if you manage them carefully they work fine. The car can definitely use more brakes at the track, though, and for those willing to spend the additional bucks Todd is helping us out by providing another step along the way if you don't want to make the leap all the way to 13" rotors, etc., etc.
For the near future I want to keep the stock slicer wheels just because one of the things I like best about taking the SHO to the track is the sleeper effect. Nobody expects a stock-looking Taurus to do much. Custom wheels with big brakes behind them give too much away. wink
So it's always a tradeoff of what you want and what you want to spend. Todd's suggested mod is a good (and reasonably obvious, from an engineering perspective) step between the 96 upgrade and full SHOstoppers or Baers with bigger rotors.
For my purposes (including track time) I'll keep the 96 upgrade until I get to the point that I'm ready for large diameter wheels with low-profile tires, and then get the best big rotor kit I can find (probably SHOstoppers w/13" rotors).
Todd's proposed kit fills a very nice step in between, especially if you have custom 16" (non-slicer) rims that you like and want to keep. I'm guessing they'll rock.
Anyway, just wanted to say it for those questioning the utility. It's good to support folks like Todd who go out of their way to give us good, sensible options like this.
THE Shobra
SHO Member
Very well put thanks. And thanks Todd for supporting the SHO's
PAracer
Active Member
I am very interested in getting this kit for my 93. What extra parts will I need to make it work. I am planning on 17 inch wheel soon. Besides dust boots, what are the differences between the two kits?
Thanks for bridging the gap between the 96 upgrade and the 13 iners!
Thanks for bridging the gap between the 96 upgrade and the 13 iners!
The differences between the two will be further explained soo. Meaning when I have time to get it written up.
The primairy difference aside from dust boots, is price. I vey much like the look of the DP caliper over the NDL some but I know full well that the cost of this part is going to price some out of the budget. Thus I've worked to make it an option either way you go. Picks of both of them are on the web page under 'calipers' on the brake page.
I'll get to the specifics later. For now what you need to know is that there is very little needed or work necessary to fit either of them to the car. If you have any year SHO with the 96 kit on it or a 3G car these will bolt on. (note: 96 cars have not yet been hose fit) And for those who don't want them on all the time I see it being easy to switch back to the iron parts. Like before you sell the car to someone... wink
The primairy difference aside from dust boots, is price. I vey much like the look of the DP caliper over the NDL some but I know full well that the cost of this part is going to price some out of the budget. Thus I've worked to make it an option either way you go. Picks of both of them are on the web page under 'calipers' on the brake page.
I'll get to the specifics later. For now what you need to know is that there is very little needed or work necessary to fit either of them to the car. If you have any year SHO with the 96 kit on it or a 3G car these will bolt on. (note: 96 cars have not yet been hose fit) And for those who don't want them on all the time I see it being easy to switch back to the iron parts. Like before you sell the car to someone... wink
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