Need Advice On Which Sway Bars To Use

[KeystonePowderCoating]

Here are the choices of sway bars that I have.

Front:
20.6 & 24

Rear:
23 & 26

The car does not have a quaife and here is the current suspension on the car.

Koni / Eibach / SFC's / STB's / H-brace / TPR Bushings / Alum SFB's / GTP arms / 13" PBR up Front / 11.6 in rear / Bias Plugs / 17" wheels / New Dunlop Sticky Tires / all of the normal upgrade goodies.

The car also has all of the normal bolt on go-fast parts so it is making a little more hp than stock too.

The car is designed to be a quick daily driver that is fun to drive on the highway / streets. The car is not designed to be a track car and seldom will see an actual track.

I've searched under "sway bars" and read every single thread.

One thread mentions running the 20.6 / 26 combo. Majority say 24/26.

This might sound weird and probably is, but in the past, I disconnected one of the front endlinks, and was blown away at how the front end gripped through the turn. No wheel spin at all even under heavy acceleration coming out of a tight turn. However, the rest of the car felt like jello. The rear end felt like it was lifting off the ground and I could only imagine on the street in a panic situation especially with the larger rear brakes.

So I ask, how about the 20.6 / 26 combo. That way the front still plants because it is the smallest of the front bars but there will still be a bar to help reduce body roll.

Then there is the tried and true 24/26 combo. I'm sure this is going to yield a much flatter car, and probably a more "safer" car on the streets / highway because the rear end won't have such a tendency to instantly become the front end of the car around a quick turn if I happen to nail the brakes.

In the past with another SHO that I owned, I've had the rear end of the car come around on me with just a slight tap of the brakes on a tight turn and it was a very uneasy feeling. I'm concerned with the larger brakes that the car might become tail happy.

Should I just stick with the tried and true 24/26 or try something a little different?

Am I right or completely wrong with this? Ultimately, in just a few words, what I'm looking for is a car that sticks to the road as good as a Taurus can, but still remaining safe to drive on the streets.

On a side note, how about any other sway bar combination, even if I have to order in a new bar / or two.

 

[Shoaz]

You could search here a bit, there've been a number of threads on this. Searching for something that broad may be a little tought to sift through, though.

The 24mm front bar adds quite a bit of push. As you've discovered, less bar in front means less push, but going to far will make the tail come out more easily which isn't always safe.

20.6/26 has been used a fair amount with the suspension that you have. I think that's what I have in my silver car right now (can't remember what I put in the front, but it sure wasn't 24mm).

 

[SHO92]

The 24/26 is the flattest, safest swaybar combo. I run a 22/26 combo and I like it a lot.

You already have a good idea of how the car will act with the different bar combos, I say run the 20.6/26. The car will still be pretty neutral, but it will have a bit of oversteer at the limit. As long as you don't mind that, you'll be fine, and you get the added traction benefit.

 

[38SHO]

I'd say try the 20.6 and 23mm for the **** of it....... I used to have it and liked it.....

in fact after reading all your mods again, and what your goal is, I'd say thats the only way to go.

with a 20.6 and 23mm I could get the back end to break loose extremely easy If I wanted to.... If I never braked on the actual corner and the ground was not wet.... I had extreme confidence as it would stick like glue. I would imagine the 26mm bar would further induce oversteer, and I cannot see how that could be much better, I defintely wouldn't be as confident in a hard corner I don't know well with a guardrail right next to you.... like if your hauling ass on the street for example....

 

[KeystonePowderCoating]

I don't want to turn this thread into a "bench racing" type of thread, however I have a bench racing type of question.

I've been thinking about this since I posted the first question...

What would the difference be between hypothetically lets say

20.6/23 vs. 35/40 or something close to that like 37/40

I would think that the ultimate goal would be to keep the front to rear ratio as "normal" as possible, then go with the biggest set of "normal ratio" bars that you can stuff under the car, to keep it as flat (no body roll) as possible.

Again, I'm just using this as a theory.

So with that said, why would a 20.6/23 be better than a 24/26?

It seems to me that they would both keep the front to rear ratio about the same but the 20.6/23 would allow the body to roll more than a 24/26 and I thought body roll is the enemy.

But in my eyes a 24/26 would be better cause there would be less body roll and if someone made them or if they would even fit, a set of 35/40 would be even better yet for handling.

On a side note, lets not bring "ride comfort" into this. I'm just looking at it from the prospective that less body roll is better. So why is a 20.6/23 better than a 24/26 or drastically a 35/40

How far off am I with this theory.

 

[38SHO]

well I don't like to think of swaybars as a way of detering body roll........

in fact I've seen many fast cars with body roll going around corners....

using bigger bars just doesn't let the suspension flex as much, you know that is actually a good thing, and it doesn't give you good traction in tight corners........

you know if that wasn't the case how come we are using 20mm swaybars instead of 200mm.........

I think swaybars are more for tuning the way your car handles, if you can get better turn in, and have sticky tires, you will go faster through corners.. its all about getting this big 4 door beast turned... bigger swaybars, albeit provide less body roll... effect turn in IMHO.......

you know, I'd almost just tell you to try out the 20.3/26mm setup, the 20.6/23mm setup, and the 24/26mm setup....... you already have all the bars

then come back and tell us what you think of each one, because everyone is different

 

[KeystonePowderCoating]

I appreciate your reply. I now see how excessive sized sway bars, limiting the suspension would cause less traction overall.

Seeing how I already have a bad taste of the rear end beating the front end around a corner, I think that the 20.6/23 would seem to be the best.

Although a 20.6/26 might yield the best suspension setup for a true experienced driver who can take the car to its limits, I'd rather have the "fail-safe" of the front push out on me before the back breaks loose.

Does this sound about right / a wise choice?


On a side note, what is the difference between a 20.6/23 vs. 24/26 from a "real world" daily driving / periodic spirited street driving point of view.

 

[jedhead]

Before I had the Quaife and after I had all the suspension work done, SSLinear/Koni, SFC, All new bushings, etc, my inside tire would go up in smoke when I tried to go WOT out of turns up to 60mph.

Some more info here:

http://www.panix.com/~awinbow/sho/suspension.html

Bob

 

[SHOtime2511]

i would go 22/26 sporty and safe!

 

[KeystonePowderCoating]

Any other opinions on some good setups? Seems we've almost covered the full range besides stock LOL

 

[38SHO]

I'd really check out the 20.6/23 setup.......

its a lil ballsy, on an offramp sweeping corners I had mine sideways at 100mph in the rain one time.......

I'd love to drive a 20.6/26mm setup to see the differences firsthand, but I just don't see myself going and buying the bar just to test it out because I probably wouldn't keep it. I like a nice, controllable, handling car..... the more predictable the more confident you are as you get to know more and more of its limits, thats when u start to take corners fast and put a big smile on your face.... screw mathematics, do what feels comfortable to you

 

[SHOtime2511]

I'd really check out the 20.6/23 setup.......

its a lil ballsy, on an offramp sweeping corners I had mine sideways at 100mph in the rain one time.......

I'd love to drive a 20.6/26mm setup to see the differences firsthand, but I just don't see myself going and buying the bar just to test it out because I probably wouldn't keep it. I like a nice, controllable, handling car..... the more predictable the more confident you are as you get to know more and more of its limits, thats when u start to take corners fast and put a big smile on your face.... screw mathematics, do what feels comfortable to you

remind me to stay WAY off your bumper when we caravan to FSHOC meets

 

[shomesomesho]

On my daily driver, non-quaife SHO I run no front swaybar and a 26mm rear swaybar (moog/koni suspension).

It does tend to oversteer, and it takes getting used to, but for my driving preference, I place a higher priority on front wheel traction even at the expense of more body roll.

That being said, I spun out once taking a turn very fast. The rear end swung out and before I could punch the throttle to catch it, I found myself off the road.

After that frightening episode I added 5 psi to the rears and the handling is fairly neutral now at high speed. I can punch the throttle in turns and the inner tire does not tend to waste its rubber as much as when I did have a front swaybar. In fact sometimes, it almost feels like the car has a Quaife. Almost but not quite.

 

[Shoaz]

As has been mentioned, making the front bar too stiff will lift the inside front tire on corner exit, which just makes it spin. i.e., no motive traction on corner exit.

Ideally, one wants to get roll stiffness from the springs. Getting adequate roll stiffness from springs generally means a much stiffer ride than anyone is willing to put up with on the street, so bars are added to make up the difference. The stiffer your springs, the less bar you'll need.

I ran no front bar in the silver car (and a 23mm rear) when I had the coilovers on it, and since it's Quaifeless that helped a lot on corner exit traction. The stiff springs in the coilovers did the anti-roll job and the car handled extremely well on the track.

So generally the problem with a 24mm or stiffer front bar is corner exit traction, although if the front is too stiff it can add push (understeer) as well.

Since the weight balance and overall spring/chassis stiffness never seems to be the same across any two SHOs, and since driver preference makes a difference as well, the fine tuning is really going to be up to you. 20.3/26 with the Eibach springs and Koni dampers sounds like a good starting place to me, but just be aware that that setup could be a little tail happy under some conditions. A good thing to do is learn the limits of the car at an autocross practice day or something like that, not on the street.

 

[38SHO]

remind me to stay WAY off your bumper when we caravan to FSHOC meets

this SHO isn't ANYTHING compared to my old SLO in handling... this thing is a major dog..........

that being said it might have potential.......

that being said, yes don't try to keep up... I'm a crazy bitch with huge cojones



I don't think I'd lead any caravans unless I was cruising or had Kristen with me, she hates going fast and I don't jepordize her, she keeps me sane behind the wheel..... sad but true

 

[SHO92]

The page that Bob(Jedhead) posted has a lot of interesting reading on it. I forgot all about that site.

The smaller bar will give you better corner exit speed since the inner tire won't tend to lift as much. How much you'd actually experience that on the street though is probably pretty limited. You tend to not mash the throttle as ******* the street as you would on the track while coming out of a curve.

The better cornering "feel" is going to be a flat car. Bigger bars will keep the car flatter around curves, which you will notice on the street. I still think that the 24/26 combo is the best street setup for "feel". I was very happy with that combo when I had it on the street, but I decided to go with the smaller 22 front bar when I started doing track events after hearing a lot of discussion on the different bars. The 24 front with the rare 25 rear from the police car is supposedly even better.

A lot of this threads discussion is based on the assumption that the car is an MTX. If someone reading this has an ATX instead, their experience will be different. Having never owned an ATX, I've heard that the 24/26 combo is the best for street/track because the extra stiffness is needed for the extra weight from the ATX tranny.

 

[KeystonePowderCoating]

This turned out to be a really good thread for information.

Thanks to all who posted.

I believe that although the 24/26 is a tried and true combo, I'm going to take the road a little less traveled and go with the 20.6/23.

Primarily this car is going to be a quick daily driver. I'm not really concerned with corner exit speeds or wheel spin. I'd prefer a flat car that leaves me with a sense of security when driving vs. all out taking the car to its edge.

On the track, I'd assume that going with a very light front bar or no front bar at all, is going to yield the quickest lap times when put in the hands of an experienced driver. But on the street, you have to deal with people pulling out in front of you, and all of the other situations that could result in a panic braking situation.

I'd prefer to keep the rear wheels trailing the front wheels even during those panic braking situations so from the information I gathered, the 20.6/23 will be a good place to start.

Although it is likely going to take me a few more weeks before the car is done, however as soon as it is, I'll be sure to report back with my analysis of the 20.6/23 setup.

On and by the way, the car is indeed an mtx.

Thanks again for all who posted some really good info!!

-Scott-

 

[Shoaz]

I believe that although the 24/26 is a tried and true combo, I'm going to take the road a little less traveled and go with the 20.6/23.

That's a good place to start. It's not really a rare setup, though, as plenty of people have used that as well.

And it gives you the option to easily move up to 20.5/26mm should you decide later that you want to try that. The rear bar is pretty trivial to change compared to the front.

 

[drivinhard]

based on what you describe, I'd go 22/26

 

[Ground Rat]

Yeah, def need some more stiffness up front on my ATX

The page that Bob(Jedhead) posted has a lot of interesting reading on it. I forgot all about that site.

The smaller bar will give you better corner exit speed since the inner tire won't tend to lift as much. How much you'd actually experience that on the street though is probably pretty limited. You tend to not mash the throttle as ******* the street as you would on the track while coming out of a curve.

The better cornering "feel" is going to be a flat car. Bigger bars will keep the car flatter around curves, which you will notice on the street. I still think that the 24/26 combo is the best street setup for "feel". I was very happy with that combo when I had it on the street, but I decided to go with the smaller 22 front bar when I started doing track events after hearing a lot of discussion on the different bars. The 24 front with the rare 25 rear from the police car is supposedly even better.

A lot of this threads discussion is based on the assumption that the car is an MTX. If someone reading this has an ATX instead, their experience will be different. Having never owned an ATX, I've heard that the 24/26 combo is the best for street/track because the extra stiffness is needed for the extra weight from the ATX tranny.

Tell me about it. I have a 22mm up front on my ATX and she feels like a Nose Heavy Pig going hard into corners. I dont have any traction problems but would like to make her more confidence inspiring thru corners. Then again I am a little biased from riding a sportbike. Currently looking for MTX as well and may have one this weekend.