Hellcat Fuel Pump... it works!*

[Ta2dResqr]

I have been given permission to let the (****)cat out of the bag. I am currently using the Hellcat LPFP mod by @Ecoboost_xsport . I have almost a full tank through it as a daily driver. Obviously, this is still very new and still undergoing testing but so far, so good. I have not had a single issue yet (aside from installing it in a dark driveway by flashlight). Everything seems normal and I am even questioning if I may have had a weak pump or dirty filter as it appears my fuel mileage may have crept up a bit. I would like to keep running this for a couple more months before I make that claim officially though. I have a smooth idle and no hiccups with DD or hard accels. Currently, I do not have a tuning device (the car is tuned though, pre pump install). This limits data-logging I can do. I currently have a few logs using ForScan Lite. The .csv is kinda hard to read the way it is formatted. Live view looks great. LTFT, STFT, and O2 sensors all look good. I do not have any black smoke or crazy rich conditions. I am very interested to see how this progresses and willing to share information (logs).

Above all... Thanks to @Ecoboost_xsport for developing another option for this platform and all of his amazing write-ups.

 

[Ecoboost_xsport]

I have been given permission to let the (****)cat out of the bag. I am currently using the Hellcat LPFP mod by @Ecoboost_xsport . I have almost a full tank through it as a daily driver. Obviously, this is still very new and still undergoing testing but so far, so good. I have not had a single issue yet (aside from installing it in a dark driveway by flashlight). Everything seems normal and I am even questioning if I may have had a weak pump or dirty filter as it appears my fuel mileage may have crept up a bit. I would like to keep running this for a couple more months before I make that claim officially though. I have a smooth idle and no hiccups with DD or hard accels. Currently, I do not have a tuning device (the car is tuned though, pre pump install). This limits data-logging I can do. I currently have a few logs using ForScan Lite. The .csv is kinda hard to read the way it is formatted. Live view looks great. LTFT, STFT, and O2 sensors all look good. I do not have any black smoke or crazy rich conditions. I am very interested to see how this progresses and willing to share information (logs).

Above all... Thanks to @Ecoboost_xsport for developing another option for this platform and all of his amazing write-ups.

I will say....I can't take all the credit for this. I was motivated by @802SHO who was having his engine builder bring this up as an option to get me to rethink my previous opinion on this modification. Jury is still out for sure, but I don't want to take the credit for it. I simply continued, and built on, the work of others...

Excited to see the future of this mod and if it is indeed a truly viable option over the DW300c...this will be truly put to the test when some of the higher output, more aggressively tuned, vehicles start employing this.

 

[802SHO]

Glad to hear it isn’t causing any idle issues or rich conditions. Makes me feel a lot better about putting it in my tank.

 

[Ta2dResqr]

I am 1 full tank through. I did a LOT of idling with looking at STFT, LTFT, and o2 numbers. Then of course I had to do some full throttle driving. Even with all of that on this tank, I am at 22.2mpg. I was at 21.8 mpg average for 8 months. I reset the system after the install. Hopefully this weekend, I will get a fresh oil change on it. This will allow my to see if I am having any wash down issues and fuel getting in the oil. Looking at the rest of my numbers, I am not expecting to see any of this though.

 

[ButtonPuncher]

Very cool! As long as ECU is able to properly PWM the pump and regulate the pressure, I wouldn't think that this mod would hurt anything. Your fuel trims would be way out of whack if it there was too much flow for the system.

BTW, how much louder is it than the stock pump? Once upon a time, when I had a Ford Contour, I had a Walbro 255HO and the whine on that was pretty bad. I'm guessing that the SHO is quieter because of the plastic basket. On the Contour it was all metal.


Thanks,
Ben

 

[Ta2dResqr]

BTW, how much louder is it than the stock pump? Once upon a time, when I had a Ford Contour, I had a Walbro 255HO and the whine on that was pretty bad. I'm guessing that the SHO is quieter because of the plastic basket. On the Contour it was all metal.

I am about to fill for my third tank. Honestly, It is an install and forget it. No additional noise. No idle or running issues. I seriously have not found a downside to this modification yet. Almost 1000k miles in.

 

[DadMobile]

Nice! I think I’ll be doing the same shortly.

 

[Ta2dResqr]

IT LIVES AGAIN! So after my accident, I was able to salvage some parts from the car before settlement. Luckily, I had the stock fuel pump/module. I recovered the pump and module and installed it into my new SHO yesterday. The white car was tuned (not for this pump) and I saw no issues over 1000 miles. It is now in a untuned (stock program) car and not having any issues. It has only been in 100 miles but, I will keep everyone updated. Looks like this may be an option for stock or modified vehicles.

 

[802SHO]

Awesome! Glad you’re ok btw! I’m pretty confident the 525 will be able to keep up with the increased demand from upgraded injectors. Glad to know it requires no special tuning like the DW300C.

 

[GotGrip?]

How does this mod work exactly, it is just literally just a swap out / plug and play or is there more to it? Only asking because my LPFP just crapped out and I need to get my car back up and running to get to work and such. The daily struggle is real D:

 

[Ecoboost_xsport]

It's really just plug and play (some pretty in depth mods done to the bucket though)

Keep in mind, the pump will only "put out" what the PCM requests of it. So it shouldn't see any issues. It may reduce the "duty cycle" compared to what the stock pump, or even the DW300c, may see. Which is a good thing...you've got more "overhead"...

This is a video I made of the conversion. I will also do it for you if you'd like, but keep in mind, I would only do it with all NEW parts. I wouldn't be using your old bucket, but if you take on the project yourself and if you want to save some dough..you can do that.

 

[Ta2dResqr]

Just for some more insight, I took this out of my white car after it was totaled. The white car was tuned (on an unknown tuner). I then installed it in my red car (bone stock). I have been daily driving it (100+ miles a day) for over 2 months now in all sorts of weather and conditions. I have also used it with various fuel blends (93 octane, 5 gallons E85 14 gallons 93, and 19 gallons of 91 octane E30). I have not had a single issue or complaint. Also, I highly recommend @Ecoboost_xsport . His product and craftsmanship were nothing but excellent. He was in contact often and quickly met the agreed upon time and price.

 

[stripSHO]

All these lack of downsides are nice, but I'm curious why there's no mention of any proven, demonstrated upside

 

[802SHO]

All these lack of downsides are nice, but I'm curious why there's no mention of any proven, demonstrated upside

I don’t think this mod will demonstrate much benefit with stock injectors. In my experience using the Deatschwerks 300C lpfp is adequate when paired with an XDI35 or EVO HPFP with stock injectors.

For me, upgrading injectors to XDI 2000cc caused a slight dip in rail pressure under initial WOT which is always accompanied by a boost spike. Fueling was E40-E50. Same setup with stock injectors I never got a dip.

I believe this mod shines only when someone has seen a need for it, as I think I have. Unfortunately I won’t have a true apples to apples comparison bc I’ve upgraded my XDI EVO with an XDI60. But pairing the 2000cc injectors with this Walbro 525 lpfp I am looking to see no dips whatsoever. And should be able to run E85.

 

[Ta2dResqr]

All these lack of downsides are nice, but I'm curious why there's no mention of any proven, demonstrated upside

I think the biggest thing here is that it is still a very early modification and it is in the proof of concept stage. It obviously is capable of flowing more fuel. There have been attempts to use various larger injectors in the past and while they were obviously able to flow more, they were not compatible with the platform. Currently, I have tested this on a mildly tuned vehicle with success and on a stock platform with success. Personally, I bought this as a supporting mod for future plans. It is much easier in my current situation to piece things together little by little. i have a few mods that my stock car does not yet need (EPP hotpipes, EPP dual intake, GH intercooler, MSD coils, Hellcat fuel pump, etc) but, when the time comes and I want to tune and add the HPFP, the supporting mods are already in place. In addition, by proving that this is compatible with the platform and able to be controlled by our PCM, that allows people like @802SHO, @Ecoboost_xsport, etc to put this into their application where they do need the extra fuel and are pushing the limits with a little more confidence. Is it guaranteed to solve them? No. Is it likely to be the source of new problems? Not so much. Unfortunately, as we all know with this platform, it is a lot of trial and error and using parts from other applications. The more data, testers, and applications something is tried in, the more confident we can be with it.

 

[stripSHO]

I don’t think this mod will demonstrate much benefit with stock injectors. In my experience using the Deatschwerks 300C lpfp is adequate when paired with an XDI35 or EVO HPFP with stock injectors.

For me, upgrading injectors to XDI 2000cc caused a slight dip in rail pressure under initial WOT which is always accompanied by a boost spike. Fueling was E40-E50. Same setup with stock injectors I never got a dip.

I believe this mod shines only when someone has seen a need for it, as I think I have. Unfortunately I won’t have a true apples to apples comparison bc I’ve upgraded my XDI EVO with an XDI60. But pairing the 2000cc injectors with this Walbro 525 lpfp I am looking to see no dips whatsoever. And should be able to run E85.

Oh I know it's of no benefit for me. Just curious if it actually has the potential to benefit anyone else. I'm a seeing is believing kind of guy, and until someone is willing to show me otherwise I remain firmly of the belief that lpfp performance doesn't really matter. But assuming I'm wrong, it is pretty clear from DW's data that the pump module itself is the major point of restriction in the low pressure system. Seems it would be a lot simpler and better performing to convert to an external pump. But that's just me armchair quarterbacking without having ever even lifted my rear seat lol.

How bad is your dip? And what's the injector pulsewidth look like at that RPM? I would enjoy learning what it is I'm missing with this whole mod category

 

[802SHO]

Oh I know it's of no benefit for me. Just curious if it actually has the potential to benefit anyone else. I'm a seeing is believing kind of guy, and until someone is willing to show me otherwise I remain firmly of the belief that lpfp performance doesn't really matter. But assuming I'm wrong, it is pretty clear from DW's data that the pump module itself is the major point of restriction in the low pressure system. Seems it would be a lot simpler and better performing to convert to an external pump. But that's just me armchair quarterbacking without having ever even lifted my rear seat lol.

How bad is your dip? And what's the injector pulsewidth look like at that RPM? I would enjoy learning what it is I'm missing with this whole mod category

I can look tonight or tomorrow. It wasn’t the worst dip I believe it went as low as 1200 psi rail. Brad ended up making it better but it was still looking odd. Instead of instant 2500psi or so it would ramp up to 2500…after he made it better. I don’t believe im logging injector pulse width for a parameter, but from my understanding the XDI injectors flow 50% more with the same pulse width as stock injectors. So really the pressure should be there….at least that was the positive thinking when looking at the dips. There shouldn’t be any dips so I wanted to try to eliminate it from happening moving forward. So I’m looking forward to seeing if the Walbro 525 fixes the dips or slower ramping pressure that I was seeing. And I’m interested in pushing it further, I’d like to have a full send E85 tune. Hopefully I can run a max effort GearHead R turbos tune too.

 

[Ecoboost_xsport]

@stripSHO Oh boy here we go again, lol...Mr. "I hate it because I didn't think of it first". Lol

Well, I DEFINITELY know the LPFP performance is an issue. Simple fact that it underperformed and saw dips until I was able to throw the pump on a BAP. But you know this already.

It really isn't that hard to understand. Numbers notwithstanding, the fuel at the rail is only going to be good as what it's being fed. Volume OR pressure. By your argument why would any vehicle need a higher output LPFP? ****...ugh...

No one said this Hellcat pump is the end all be all, but it's an attempt at solving a known issue Definitely needs more field testing...

I agree an external pump setup would be pretty ideal and solve a lot of issues. I think, by the time the parts were sourced, plumbed, wired, and connected, you'd be in it pretty deep. Stock module has an EVAP pass-through, then you need to ensure the 90psi pressure relief valve was connected properly, etc. And don't forget the jet pump that uses a venturi created by the in tank pump to siphon fuel over the saddle from the other side. Lots of small details to hammer out when going external. I think it's more a form-factor issue. Throwing a modified module directly into the tank makes things a bit more plug and play. But it's likely true that the stock module is a restriction. Output orifice, fuel filter, etc...all playing a role in this restriction. How much of one? Hard to say...might not even be able to utilize the 525 to its full potential if all those restrictions are significant enough. But it's being tried and numbers have to be gathered to see exactly where this modification falls in the grand scheme.

But, I'm excited to see this external pump setup your putting together, I'd be interested for sure...

 

[stripSHO]

I can look tonight or tomorrow. It wasn’t the worst dip I believe it went as low as 1200 psi rail. Brad ended up making it better but it was still looking odd. Instead of instant 2500psi or so it would ramp up to 2500…after he made it better. I don’t believe im logging injector pulse width for a parameter, but from my understanding the XDI injectors flow 50% more with the same pulse width as stock injectors. So really the pressure should be there….at least that was the positive thinking when looking at the dips. There shouldn’t be any dips so I wanted to try to eliminate it from happening moving forward. So I’m looking forward to seeing if the Walbro 525 fixes the dips or slower ramping pressure that I was seeing. And I’m interested in pushing it further, I’d like to have a full send E85 tune. Hopefully I can run a max effort GearHead R turbos tune too.

Honestly I don't remember SCT having inj. PW available but was hoping maybe that has changed. It's a pretty crucial piece of information for determining if you're actually about to run out of fuel or not. Rail pressure doesn't really tell much; you could be 800 psi at 3000 rpm and still have a ton of headroom, or be 2800 psi at 5000 rpm and be tapped out.

I also just realized you're still only running the EVO, sounds like time to upgrade to the XDI-60, no?

 

[stripSHO]

@stripSHO Oh boy here we go again, lol...Mr. "I hate it because I didn't think of it first". Lol

First of all, you got me all wrong, per usual. I'm trying learn, to understand what you guys are actually trying to overcome and accomplish. Second, you're very far from the first person to swap out a module pump, so get over yourself Mr. "Stripsho talks over my head too much and makes me insecure so I have to lash out at him all the time." If your answer to "Is there any proven upside?" is No, then why not just say no and leave it at that?

Well, I DEFINITELY know the LPFP performance is an issue. Simple fact that it underperformed and saw dips until I was able to throw the pump on a BAP. But you know this already.

What I know, is that a while ago you shared some pretty unreliable graphs illustrating a worse mid-rpm pressure dip with the BAP than without, and no significant gains or corroborating data to validate whatever little improvements you inferred up top at 3000 PSI. You know, stuff like air load, HPFP signal, injector pulsewidth, O2, etc. ****, when you're talking about such small gains (3% maybe?), that can be done with nothing but a change in fuel temperature. I laughed really hard at the time because I seriously thought it was meant to be some kind of joke or something.

It really isn't that hard to understand. Numbers notwithstanding, the fuel at the rail is only going to be good as what it's being fed. Volume OR pressure. By your argument why would any vehicle need a higher output LPFP? ****...ugh...

If it's so easy to understand then why is it so hard for somebody to prove to me? He'll, if you need help articulating a presentation then give me the logs and I'll do it. I'll make myself eat crow for you! Numbers notwithstanding?? That's really all I'm looking for is numbers, not a diatribe. But I like real numbers, not ambiguous chart screenshots with data points of wildly different units displayed on the same y axis and no consistency in scaling. Maybe by asking again, someone who actually knows what they're talking about can chime in and enlighten me. Because from my seat all your info does is prove my point-- you ran up 30% more pressure on the low side and got nothing meaningful to show for it at the rail.

Majority of vehicles only have one fuel pump, and therefore flow capacity of the injectors is directly dependent on that one in-tank's ability to maintain an adequate pressure differential between fuel rail and manifold. In our case, the "LPFP" is just a lift pump. There is a very key distinction there. As for the rest of my argument, sorry my kid spoons are in the dishwasher right now. Go find my original argument and read it as many times as it takes to comprehend where I'm coming from. Not my job to rebut incoherent babblings of terms you don't understand, or to teach you all the technical aspects of the system you're trying to be play the expert on yet have no grasp. UGGGGHHHHHH.

No one said this Hellcat pump is the end all be all, but it's an attempt at solving a known issue Definitely needs more field testing...

Hey while you're looking at the Hellcat for fuel system inspiration, make sure you take note of the fuel line diameter too lol UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I agree an external pump setup would be pretty ideal and solve a lot of issues. I think, by the time the parts were sourced, plumbed, wired, and connected, you'd be in it pretty deep. Stock module has an EVAP pass-through, then you need to ensure the 90psi pressure relief valve was connected properly, etc. I think it's more a form-factor issue. Throwing a modified module directly into the tank makes things a bit more plug and play.

But, I'm excited to see this external pump setup your putting together, I'd be interested for sure...

Yeah, it's too bad you're not such an insolent self-righteous as.shole to me all the time. I could be a good resource for you. For example- maybe you already know, but you can set and ramp the LPFP pump voltages in the tune (aka B.A.P.). Up to 18v allegedly, never tested it. I want to say that I hope you did explore that avenue first and all the time spent installing, testing and taking 10,000 pictures to document installing a BAP wasn't a complete and total waste of time for you. But that would be a lie, because honestly I'm beginning to find you so intolerable that the thought of you wasting your time and money on a perfectly pointless mod kinda makes me smile.