Gauging interest and specs for turbo kit.

[freeze]

not sure of the boost levels of tim's car at the given rpm's do know that at 100 mph it still is still pulling vaccum. I'll try to find the formula on the injector size, time has 47lbs with 430 whp and is still fat, infact never register above 10-1 on the dyno. and about turbo lag at highway speeds you do not notice any lag, and 140 comes real fast any way pm of call me if you have any questions I've have alot of numbers for you.

 

[munkee]

27lb injectors won't even come close to where you want to be. Keep in mind that the stock SHO is using 24.6lb injectors.

Oops, I dropped the ball on that one. For some reason I was thinking the sho had 19 lb injectors? Anyway, 32's are marginally more expensive than 27's so they will probably be used if not 36's. I don't see a need for more than the 36lb though. (I already have 48lbers lined up for my 12psi project ) I would like to keep wheel tq at or below 300, which means the hp should only be between 275 and 290. The figure I am using is
expected hp x.55/number of injectors. Then go up one size to be on the safe side.
I did some more mapping for the 60-1 compressor today. I know it has more than you need for 6 psi but I still think it will provide relatively quick spool up and be efficient in the upper boost range. It was the better one for keeping the plot line closer to the surge line and was more efficient at higher rpms than about a half dozen that I compared it with. I was doing some comparisons with a T04 H-3 and a T04E "60". I know I am going to be spending a lot of time researching compressor maps and combinations to see what I can come up with. I have a couple of people I need to contact here shortly too that might help narrow it down quicker.

Also, Mike's 100% dead-on - don't cheap out on tuning options. Me? I'd be making the kit with a Tweecer R/T, including air/fuel monitoring.

I agree, and I have a Tweecer R/T and a PLX A/F meter that I will be using to get the kit tuned. Then, at the very least, that program will go with the kit. Then the user can decide which model tweecer they want or if they even want to use the tweecer. (or if they already have one) I'll wait to decide what to include in the kit until I have one working.
It seems like we barely get 40 hours in at work until I have something I really want to do, then we end up working 12-14 hour days or working out of town. I haven't done near the amount of research I had hoped to the last couple days but I will get around to it.
I have a question about conversion factors. All of the compressor maps I have are in CFM but most of the maps I can find on the net are in lbs./min. and I'm not sure if I have the conversion factor correct. I am using CFM x .070318 =lbs/min. . Is that right? Again, thanks for all the good input and keeping my facts straight. Chris.

 

[JSMCPN]

What is our horsepower goal for the Turbo SHO project?
What is the budget?
One big hurdle thats often overlooked is the turbo's oil and water feed/return lines!

1. I would use a 3.0, it's gonna be more than enough to eat trannies like Rolo's if this project works.
2. Exhaust should be as simple (hahaha) as possible, 2.5" single exit should be plenty, internally wastegated turbo would make piping compact and "simple" and reduce cost by $700, but could tend to "boost creep".
3. Battery relocation and remote oil filtration/cooling mandatory. This car is going to run HOT, especially intercooled.
4. Y-pipe design will depend heavily on the type of turbo selected.
5. A kit would be all the big stuff like the turbo, intercooler (a large one won't be needed for 6psi and could actually be the cheapest part of the project), the y-pipe with flanges, and the intake and intercooler piping.

Any way you look at this, it's going to be REALLY expensive. Injectors, fuel system, plumbing, engine management, cockpit instrumentation, QUAIFE, yikes!. Sadly, supercharging is likely going to be much cheaper and easier. I'm a turbo guy, and would love to have a turbo SHO but it could easly end up costing way more than a blower kit.
Things that will be cheap:
Blowoff valve, intercooler, hardware, adjustable FPR, air hose.

I've got a good deal of turbo experience so I might be of help, and I'm good at finding stuff the cheapest

 

[SHO--ripper]

I'm only cooling my turbo by oil. I'm also using an external wastegate for a bit under $700
No intercooler either, but i think the N20 will keep it cool enough

 

[SonicRiot]

*Nomex suit: Check!*

A 6 PSI tubo kit? Is this comprable to the 9 PSI supercharger kit?? A turbo is a LOT of work and a WAD of cash all for just 6 PSI! I realize there is room to improve, but c;mon! 6 PSI?? What kind of power numbers will this translate to? And what will the powerband be like?

Just constructive criticism.

 

[AutoSHO]

You have to understand that 6 psi on a 10:1 compression engine is gonna produce a lot of power. You'll definately be seeing over 280 whp and wtq with a properly designed system. Probably over 300/300.

 

[Toolman]

What is our horsepower goal for the Turbo SHO project?
3. Battery relocation and remote oil filtration/cooling mandatory. This car is going to run HOT, especially intercooled.

Why do you say this? My battery is in the stock location, no problems. Also, I have found that my SHO runs cooler than just about any SHO. With my fan on I never see more than 220 on the track, and in normal driving it keeps a constant 195.

 

[Toolman]

*Nomex suit: Check!*

A 6 PSI tubo kit? Is this comprable to the 9 PSI supercharger kit?? A turbo is a LOT of work and a WAD of cash all for just 6 PSI! I realize there is room to improve, but c;mon! 6 PSI?? What kind of power numbers will this translate to? And what will the powerband be like?

Just constructive criticism.

I will make a low boost (lowest I can go is 7-8psi) next time out. I think it is good for over 300whp.

 

[SonicRiot]

These numbers would be WITHOUT any other mods like EH, P/P, BBBs, UDPs, ect.? If so, that's pretty good, but I would do a full N/A bolt-on build first before going with a Turbo. Then what kind of numbers can we see... more like the Stage 1 S/C kit?

 

[JSMCPN]

Sonic Riot, don't forget that a turbo does not suck horsepower from the crank. A supercharger drags the motor quite a lot. You will see more low end TQ than a S/C because the turbo RPM is not tied to engine RPM, so you will get positive manifold pressure faster, so long as the turbo is properly sized to the engine displacement.

This kit is not a "6 psi kit" The turbo will make as much boost as you want it to, so don't think of it like a supercharger kit. No pulleys to change, just make a ball and spring bleeder valve from parts at Homeless Depot and make more boost than the engine can handle, or anywhere in between. A turbo's minimum boost pressure is determined by the rating of the wastegate spring/actuator and manifold pressure. For example, a wastegate is set to 15psi so it takes 15+psi pressing against the wastegate to open it, but you can bleed some of that 15psi pressure away from the actuator, causing it to stay closed at a higher boost pressure. The more air you bleed off the actuator, the higher the boost. I accidentally made 30psi on my stock Talon turbo, which killed it. Cheap actuators will blow open eventually, but at the PSI levels we'd be running on a SHO, they will keep shut just fine. No need for an expensive TiAL wastegate setup. It would be extremely difficult to plumb and package, and even worse if you want to be emissions legal, as you now have to recirculate the wastegate dump back into the exhaust. Nightmare for plumbing, would be ridicuolously expensive to have a shop make a batch for us.

 

[JSMCPN]

SHO--Ripper: Oil cooled turbos are fine too, but there are some nice turbocharger options out there for cheap that are oil and water cooled. Do you have a filter between your oil source and turbo, or did you find a post-OEMFilter source to feed it with? How did you do the return line? Did you make the return tube plenty big?

 

[JSMCPN]

Why do you say this? My battery is in the stock location, no problems. Also, I have found that my SHO runs cooler than just about any SHO. With my fan on I never see more than 220 on the track, and in normal driving it keeps a constant 195.

Because the battery takes up precious engine bay space for no reason, especially when you have the need to install more peripherals for the turbo.
As far as running hotter, take into account that the airflow to the radiator will be somewhat blocked by the presence of an intercooler in front of the radiator and A/C evaporator. You could go air/water IC but those are more expensive and difficult to plumb.

Where is your turbo located? I was thinking up towards the exh.man but forgot SHO's have TWO manifolds Since your turbo is probably under the car then of course you'll run cooler. Mine is 4" behind the radiator

 

[MADMIKE]

toolmans turbo is where the stock airbox would go... runs off the front 3 cylinders....

toolman i have the white sho from muskogee... we talked on memorial at the quicktrip one night last winter... anyway.. i need to get ahold of you

 

[JSMCPN]

wierd.

 

[DemonNeno]

These numbers would be WITHOUT any other mods like EH, P/P, BBBs, UDPs, ect.? If so, that's pretty good, but I would do a full N/A bolt-on build first before going with a Turbo. Then what kind of numbers can we see... more like the Stage 1 S/C kit?

:ranton: Okay, I'll leave a good idea be for what it's worth. But seriously now... You expect a BONE stock motor to do well? Why should it do well? Are you paying ANY attention to the numbers system? If the car is requiring more fuel, why wouldn't it require more air? If the stock SHO has the capability of killing an alternator at OEM RPM limitations, why would you want to see it without some sort of under-driven protection?

Why dont we just stick a heater hose off a tap on the exhaust manifolds and run that to a turbocharger, and feed it whatever the stock 2" exhaust and 65mm TB will feed it and call it quits. ****, screw the TwEECer and the LPM, let's just shoot for the gold and run a entirely BONE STOCK motor through **** just to claim our fame for the tubro'd SHO award. Sound good enough?! I'm in! :rantoff:

I'm sorry if i am a little harsh regarding this, but this is precisely why you'll never see a TAURUS drag race or find someone who is serious about the vehicle in any other way other than hating the damn thing by the time their ownership is up. For the love of god, if you're not understanding the complexity of something with such an "advanced" nature, don't comment with something sooooo... irritating! Study these subjects before you get into them, IF you aren't quite sure what it takes to do such a modification.

Again, sorry for being so harsh about this, but it's really one of those subjects that has gotten to that point and beyond it... sooo many damn times!

 

[JSMCPN]

:ranton: Okay, I'll leave a good idea be for what it's worth. But seriously now... You expect a BONE stock motor to do well? Why should it do well? Are you paying ANY attention to the numbers system? QUOTE]

Neno, been a long time. I was already getting out of SHO's while you were still a snotnose newbie begging us to buy you a SHO!

Anyway, why SHOUDN'T a bone stock motor do well with a turbo? Actually, I want your definition of a "bone stock motor". To me, bone stock motor = An unmodified 3.0 V6, including heads, flywheel, block, crank, pistons, valves, cams, manifolds, and throttle body. All of this on the SHO motor is plenty capable of flowing a BUNCH of compressed air. Here's food for thought: Talon's throttlebody is only 52mm and it flows enough to make well over 400HP. SHO TB is 65mm, plenty for 500+ HP.

Another example...Remove my Talon turbo and all the boltons and I have a bone stock 2.0 engine making 140 horsepower. Doing that, I have not modified the MOTOR in any way. Put all the mods back on and it suddenly gains 230-270 horsepower depending on boost level. The motor has 110k miles on it and the car has been modified and raced for the past 40k miles, and it's showing no signs of giving up yet. A SHO motor is going to take to a turbo nearly as well, as it's a very stout 3.0 engine making high compression which means it will spool a big turbo quickly and flow lots of air at low-to-moderate (8-15psi) boost levels.

 

[SonicRiot]

:laugh_ti:

whatever, Demon

 

[shoisfast]

I WANT ONE (dont tell the wife)

 

[DemonNeno]

i'm not pushing the compression in emphasis as much as other bolt ons... Such as a free flowing exhaust, a larger MAF (possibly TB too), ported & polished intake (possibly heads), big bore butterflies, larger injectors and higher flow fuel pump, a mild or wild cam, a programmer to get it all working, and under drive pulleys to prevent any excessive RPM damage to accessories.

More power to you if you feel safe with high(er) compression motors on spool, but I dont trust a SHO motor THAT much.

btw, i dont remember you are and I never BEGGED people to buy me a SHO.

 

[munkee]

Before things get too far off topic,

Sadly, supercharging is likely going to be much cheaper and easier.

No, I am actually looking into both systems and costs are about even.

3. Battery relocation and remote oil filtration/cooling mandatory. This car is going to run HOT, especially intercooled

The battery won't be in the way where it's at. The SHO has a superb cooling system, as long as all the components are working correctly. I don't forsee excess heat being a problem, especially with intercooled low boost. I don't believe any FI guys are having any problems with heat, as stated by Toolman.

What is our horsepower goal for the Turbo SHO project?

The goal for this kit is 280 whp at 6psi. I think ultimately the kit will end up being a 6-9 psi kit, but your going to run into expensive trouble if you start running hp numbers over 300. 9 psi should net about 320 whp. Those hp numbers are assuming a 180 whp bone stock motor. SonicRiot, I hope that answered your question if Autosho's answer hadn't already.

runs off the front 3 cylinders....

It does run off of all 6 cylinders.

i'm not pushing the compression in emphasis as much as other bolt ons... Such as a free flowing exhaust, a larger MAF (possibly TB too), ported & polished intake (possibly heads), big bore butterflies, larger injectors and higher flow fuel pump, a mild or wild cam, a programmer to get it all working, and under drive pulleys to prevent any excessive RPM damage to accessories.

The kit will include a larger maf, larger injectors and pump, and a tweecer with a prewritten turbo program. Since a free flowing exhaust is a necessity in the proper design of a turbo system, it will also be included in this kit. P&P intake and heads would be a waste of money IMO given the target hp numbers for this kit and the relative ease that those numbers can be obtained. Same thing goes for big bore butterflies. Also, according to several reliable sources, (one of which is Maximum Boost by Corky Bell) a stock cam will be a better choice than a wild cam for low and mid boost levels. I think UDP's are a good idea, but they wouldn't be of any more use with this kit than they would on a stock sho.

To recap, my aim with this kit is 300 or less whp running 6or7 psi of intercooled boost. I want it to be as "bolt on" as possible with no internal modifications needed. I also want it to be easily upgradeable so you can build the car later on to handle running at mid to high boost while only having to change fuel components and the compressor housing size, as far as the kit is concerned.
So far the kit is to include:
60-1 hi-fi turbo (I looked into several other options and still feel that this
turbo is the one to go with, at least for now.)
28"x12"x3" Intercooler
35-40mm wastegate
Bypass Valve
Y-pipe
Down pipe
Intake and intercooler tubing
K&N cone filter
80mm maf
Oil and water lines if I go with a water cooled center section.
All hose connectors and clamps
190 lph pump
36lb injectors
Tweecer
Maybe spark plugs
Maybe clutch

Do you see anything else I missed or should think about adding? Thanks for all the input and rants, I will take everything into consideration.