Gauging interest and specs for turbo kit.

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

munkee

Too busy...
Joined
Oct 25, 2001
Messages
823
Reaction score
6
Location
Missoula, MT
Well, I know there is a ton of interest, just don't know how many are serious. I am considering putting together a 6 psi turbo kit based around the turbonetics 60-1 HI-FI turbo. First though, I want to say that I am posting this thread for the purposes of fact finding, etc. I am not promising to build a kit. I would like to know what you would like to see in the kit and any design considerations you have. If I can build something reliable that fits in with what most of you want, then I might consider building a kit. Again this is just a fact finding mission, ideas and good discussion are welcome.

Here is some of what I would like to know.
1. Would most of you be using a 3.0 or 3.2 conversion?
2. Exhaust sizing to meet catback, stock size up to 2.75"? Which one?
3. Relocate oil filter/cooler or not?
4. Rather have a 1 or 2 piece y pipe?
5. Would most of you rather a basic kit or a complete bolt on kit

There's a few for now, I am looking forward to some specific ideas.
 

freeze

New Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Messages
89
Reaction score
0
Location
tulsa
hey chris a kit would be nice, I would use a tial bov and wastegate, and spearco intercooler for starts. don't forget a ted b chip.
 

munkee

Too busy...
Joined
Oct 25, 2001
Messages
823
Reaction score
6
Location
Missoula, MT
Okay, I will look into those. Spearco was at the top of the list to look at, I was looking at turbonetics bov and wastegates but will compare them with tial also. I know they are pretty good products, usually at a good price too. I was thinking about using a tweecer with the kit. That way I could send a program with it that is already tuned and the user can create different tunes if they so desire. Or that could be a part of the kit that is left up the the individual to provide. I have no experience with the Ted B chip but maybe one with a turbo tune could be produced too. Which of those would be the preffered method?
 

munkee

Too busy...
Joined
Oct 25, 2001
Messages
823
Reaction score
6
Location
Missoula, MT
SHOwn the way said:
If I could get a kit for a decent price, then I would just rebuild my 3.0 instead of converting to 3.2
That's kind of what I was thinking. If your going with a low boost kit so the power levels aren't at the point of breaking things all the time, you wouldn't really need a 3.2 for more torque.
 

freeze

New Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Messages
89
Reaction score
0
Location
tulsa
from what I've heard turbonetics bov and wastegates are not all that good tial is by far a better choice. as regards with the tweecer I would offer it as an upgrade, if its a set 6psi system the ted b chip would be the way to go. by keeping it simple there would be less problems.
 

SinisterSHO

Rust free
Joined
Sep 11, 2003
Messages
3,293
Reaction score
649
Location
630, IL
If I were to do any kind of forced induction on my car, I would go with a 3.2. After reading the SHO Shop specs for thier blower kits, and what kind of gas the cars would need to run, a 3.2 sounds like a definate.

A Y-pipe, after being under Tim's car, and seeing what is left of his Y-pipe (wish I had my camera under there) I think the best Idea would be to make a competely custom Y-pipe with up and down pipes. Something you can bolt in as easily as a normal Y-pipe, and put the turbo in the right spot.

As far as relocating the oil filter/cooler, that would probably depend on the intercooler size and location, etc.

My only concern with a 6psi kit would be, is it upgradable? What would it take for me to up the boost to, say 9psi or higher? Would some kind of boost controller be provided? Turbo Timer? Gauges, injectors? Mounting hardware?
 

Dr. Tweak

Mad Scientist
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
2,454
Reaction score
0
Location
Northern Vermont
OMG did someone say "turbo"??? FLAME HIM!!! You can't turbo an SHO for under $150,000!!!


The first concern of mine would be engine management. The TwEECer of course is a great choice, but if a basic file with all the correct tuning could be included with the kit, that would make it much more "plug and playable". (I just reread your post and I see you already have this in mind.)

How much of difference is it going to make on the turbo kit if it's a 3.0 or a 3.2? The basic kit will likely be the same.

You could offer just a basic kit as well as the more complete "bolt on" kit.

The basic kit could include the manifolds (stock is usable), y-pipe, turbo, downpipe, intercooler and piping, and BOV.

The complete kit would include the engine management, and whatever other goodies you want to include.
 

munkee

Too busy...
Joined
Oct 25, 2001
Messages
823
Reaction score
6
Location
Missoula, MT
Ok, more good input. A few things. First,
After reading the SHO Shop specs for thier blower kits, and what kind of gas the cars would need to run, a 3.2 sounds like a definate.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Why would running a 3.2 be better than the 3.0? I can see that if you wanted more power down the road a 3.2 would be the way to go, but both motors run the same cr (right?) and use the same octane rating. So I don't see how you gain much by using a 3.2 with a low boost turbo setup. However with some more research on my part it may be a moot point. I don't have any experience with a 3.2 conversion and I just recently acquired my first (2) 3.2's. I wasn't sure if everything would stay the same as far as exact manifold location for bolting up the y-pipe, clearance issues, unused bolt holes in the block used in the kit, etc, etc.... I'll just work on the 3.0 for now and look into the 3.2 a little more.
Okay, now as far as the y pipe is concerned. I have already made a custom pipe for my 12 psi project car, but I will have to modify it to move the turbo a little closer to the wheel well. Right now it is close enough to the block that I have to move the coil pack. That is too much work for a low psi kit, or even a kit in general. It is what I want for my project but not for the 6 psi kit. I was thinking about how to make the y-pipe so that it could be easily removed if necessary and I think a two piece pipe is going to be the easiest way to do it. There may either be a bolt connection under the oil pan or a compression type fitting that I am looking into. ( I saw it in car craft I think.) That way the y pipe could be unbolted and dropped without having to lift the motor or drop the subframe. There will also be a threaded bung on the downpipe for an a/f meter.
Which brings me to the "plug and play" issue. My first and foremost goal is to design a reliable, KISS simple, bolt on kit, or as much as possible anyway. My second goal is to make the kit easy to upgrade at a later date, once the rest of the car has been brought up to the appropriate levels. The 60-1 HI-FI turbo is going to be easily capable of producing more boost. Getting more boost should be as easy as dialing in more boost on the boost controller and retuning the car to run correctly at that level. BUT, unless you have rebuilt the motor, driveline, and suspension to handle those power levels, things are going to break in a hurry which defeats the purpose of the 6 psi kit in the first place and is the exact reason many have said that it would be a waste of time to build a car for low boost. I will be looking into components here shortly and I might try to find parts that either won't allow adjustment or won't allow more than 1 or 2 psi of adjustment. Then the user would have to buy a new part to be able to turn up the boost. Either way, it will still require self control and responsibility on the users part.
I don't remember for sure why I was thinking about moving the oil filter/cooler. After looking at it some more tonight, I don't think it will be necessary.
Again, on the engine management topic. I think the easiest way for me would be to include a tweecer with a base turbo program already written on it. (It could be either Tweecer Model) That would still give you 3 more slots on the tweecer to make changes if you wanted. However, I don't want to shut any of the other chip makers out just because I don't have any experience with their chip. When the kit is to the point where it is running on a car, I will address this issue further. If any of the chipmakers have any comments or questions, feel free to P.M. or e-mail me. :)
Ok, I think that's about enough for tonight. I should have a first draft of the parts list in a few days that I would like your opinions on as far as reliability, compatability, etc, from your own experience or dealings. Until then, keep the info coming. Thanks, Chris.
 

Mike Kopstain

New Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Messages
5,914
Reaction score
52
Location
Arlington Heights, IL
I think a few of your are severly under-emphasizing the importance of a proper tune on a FI car. It's been proven that on the N/A cars the LPMs have been all over the board as far as numbers are concerned. When you put an LPM on a FI car and the numbers are "all over the board" you don't experience a minor failure. You experience a major failure.

It would be my not so humble recomendation that if you can not tune a car via a TwEECer or SCTuner, you should not be turboing it.

Tuning is not the area you want to cheap out on.

As far as "plug and play" and turbo, there is no such thing guys. :)
 

AutoSHO

No SHO = Mo $$$
Joined
Jan 16, 2001
Messages
6,979
Reaction score
17
Location
Fort Collins, CO
A few things you should note:

The stock MAF cannot be used. You will be flowing too much air and maxing it out almost immediately as you come on boost. This will make tuning the car properly impossible, and tuning it to even run decently will be a long shot.

The stock injectors will not support 6 psi of boost, even with a 12:1 Rising Rate FPR. Neither will the stock fuel pump. Also, the stock FPR is not capable of handling a large enough fuel pump to handle forced induction properly, you will need to look into an aftermarket unit if you wish to run a properly sized pump.

For a low boost kit, the 60:1 HIFI turbo is a little on the large side probably. Tim is running 1 bar (almost 15 psi) through it and not seeing a drop in power until after 6000 rpms. Thats a lof of Airflow - you may find that you have too much lag at 6 psi.

Lastly, there is no way you're gonna make this a "plug and play" system. There is too much variance between different cars, and too much to go wrong with the engine control system to make a truly bolt-on turbo setup. If you really want plug and play, you will have to sell the kit with a standalone system that comes with all new sensors, new injectors, fuel pump, FPR, along with all the components for a turbo system.
 

SHO--ripper

928 Euro
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Messages
2,003
Reaction score
0
Location
winsted,CT
Chris you're right about the 60-1 being too big for 6 psi. I think a T04 is perfect for 6 psi. Munkee if you're serious about making a turbo kit email/P.M me. I've been thinking about the same thing for awhile. It would have to include injectors,fuel pump, and a tweecer.
If i recall correctly fred is using the stock FPR and his SHO seems to be pretty healthy.
 

AutoSHO

No SHO = Mo $$$
Joined
Jan 16, 2001
Messages
6,979
Reaction score
17
Location
Fort Collins, CO
The reason you cannot use the stock FPR and tune properly is that even with a 190 lph pump you get pressure overrun, which unless you spend a lot of time working on, you cannot tune out. This will net you with a car that will learn its way lean if you leave learning on. If you turn it off, you'll jsut get poor fuel economy.

You can run the stock FPR, but its not a good way to do it. It is a band-aid.
 

AutoSHO

No SHO = Mo $$$
Joined
Jan 16, 2001
Messages
6,979
Reaction score
17
Location
Fort Collins, CO
The 155 is probably good to around 300 at the wheels. That might be pushing the limits, though, and peak demand comes at peak rpm/load, i.e. you'd find out at 7000 rpm at WOT that it wasn't enough pump.

FWIW, the stock injectors are only good to around 300 hp at the crank, and thats wide open (static). They will absolutely need to be upgraded.

Keep in mind also that the FPR is referenced to the intake vac/boost, so when under boost fuel pressure will be an equal amount higher, which reduces fuel pump flow.

On an 89-90, you should be OK with a 190 LPH pump since the 2-speed prevents overrun. However, even the 190 is a little on the small side given the 7mm feed lines.

Josh's FPR setup really isn't that expensive, and is more than worth it if you wish to run a big pump on a 91-95 SHO.
 

freeze

New Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Messages
89
Reaction score
0
Location
tulsa
just make a 12psi kit with everything and if they want a 6psi kit tell them to go and buy a supercharger :D
 

munkee

Too busy...
Joined
Oct 25, 2001
Messages
823
Reaction score
6
Location
Missoula, MT
I meant to touch on the fuel issue last night but I forgot. I remember answering in a post somewere before about how much the stock fuel delivery system will handle, but I can't find it right now. Suffice it to say I know that it won't handle much beyond 260 WHP in bench racing numbers. Real world results may vary. At any rate, it is one problem I am working on. I think a 27lb injector would be a enough for about 350hp, I am comparing some now and will have more info and questions on this a little later too. I also knew that the stock maf wouldn't work but that is as far as I am on that one. I was going to use an 80mm maf on my 12psi project but I don't know if that is necessary for this kit. I haven't done any research yet on MAF's. What are your suggestions and experiences? What are you boosted guys running?
Freeze, do you know what the A/R ratio of the turbo Tim is running is? Also, how much boost does he see at each 1000 rpm level? P.M. me if you like. I think I may have asked once before too but I don't remember the answer. If I use the 60-1 I would probably go with a .58 A/R ratio, which should spool up pretty quickly. I do realize that even with that small of an A/R ratio, this turbo is capable of a lot more than 6 psi. I was thinking that it would be cheaper down the road for someone who did end up going with a higher boost setup to just change up to a larger A/R ratio rather than buying a new turbo. I have also been thinking about using a TO4 like Sho-Ripper but with an internal wastegate for ease of installation and lower cost. Still have some more research to do on that too though. Sho-Ripper, I will get in touch with you by the end of the weekend.
One more thing for tonight, the term "plug and play" was a little misleading, sorry. I know that installing this kit won't be that easy, nothing on the sho is. It is my goal though to make this kit "as close as possible" to plug and play as I can. Thanks for all the input so far, please keep it coming. Let me know what will or won't work! Thanks, Chris.
 

Mike Kopstain

New Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Messages
5,914
Reaction score
52
Location
Arlington Heights, IL
:(

27lb injectors won't even come close to where you want to be. Keep in mind that the stock SHO is using 24.6lb injectors.

Also keep in mind that you don't want to be over 80% efficiency otherwise the reliability of the injector goes out the window.
 

AutoSHO

No SHO = Mo $$$
Joined
Jan 16, 2001
Messages
6,979
Reaction score
17
Location
Fort Collins, CO
As Mike said, 27 Ib won't do it.

27 Ib / .5 BSFC * 6 Cyl. = 324 at the crank. And that is static flow. Take an 80% duty cycle (maximum safe allowable) and that number drops to 260 hp.

30 Ib = 288 hp or ~240 whp
36 Ib = 345 hp or ~285 whp
48 Ib = 461 hp or ~385 whp

Those are safe estimates, but I wouldn't be comfortable surpassing them by a large margin.
 

Yamaha V6

SHO Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 12, 2002
Messages
3,125
Reaction score
10
Location
Rhode Island
Well, I'm running the 48# ACCEL units and was making over 500 (420 wheel hp), FWIW, on a 240lph pump, stock ignition, stock fuel pressure regulator. I was running down around 11:1 / 12:1 on air/fuel around 6k -7k with the headers & true duals, 10:1 & lower without EEC changes. So, it's enough injector & pump to handle 500hp.

Personally, I think properly tuned, I'd be shooting for 30# injectors & a 190lph for a low-boost setup (max of 6psi). 36# injectors / 240lph if you're going to play (9psi), 42# / 240lph if you're serious about boost (12psi). Go for the 48# units / 255 or 240 & boost-a-pump if you're looking at 15psi or more. Err on the rich side, obviously, but once the setup is confirmed, I'd be backing it down some on the fuel components.

One of the problems (as I understand it, so bear with me) is that the larger the injector, the harder it is to fine-tune it for part-throttle use around-town. WOT is great, but the key is driveability. The 255 has issues on the SHO, that's a given. I am probably at the max with the 240, FWIW.

Also, Mike's 100% dead-on - don't cheap out on tuning options. Me? I'd be making the kit with a Tweecer R/T, including air/fuel monitoring, 36-42# injectors, 240lph pump, whatever turbo you guys see fit (out of my area), and a VERY nice BOV / Wastegate setup. Boost gauge is an obvious one. Custom piping / possibly custom headers or manifolds that's a bolt-on between the block & the cat-back is a necessity to make the kit a "kit".

I hope it really does come to life, but until it does in numbers >3 sets, I will remain one of the "Turbo at $150,000" point of view folks, Josh. :)

Most sincere best of luck guys!
 

Forum statistics

Threads
107,091
Messages
1,181,334
Members
16,156
Latest member
crystizel

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top