Even MORE timing belt trivia!

[speedy91]

I started with a 3.2 motor (complete long block) pulled from a SHO that was wreck in transit to a dealer. It is a 95. I used parts off of a 3.0 from one of my part SHO’s (90) and used all of the major wiring harness (dash, motor, PCM) from that 90. In other words, I used all 3.0 wiring when putting this car together. I know that I had to buy another LOS computer when my previous mechanic blew the first one. I am sending Mike another one right now.

As far as the cams are concerned, I only used the 3.0 intake cams. I trust the Mike has the timing belt on correctly. Mike and I have had the car running at different times. Although, out of time and backfiring. Let me know if that helps.
Eric

 

[twr]

Mike,
Try this, Remove the air cleaner assembly, spray carb cleaner into the intake while holding the throttle plate partly open and cranking over the car. If it fires then you've got a fuel delivery issue - either not enough fuel pressure or injectors aren't wired right.

<small>[ March 13, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: twrsho ]</small>

 

[Yamaha V6]

Mike, here's the skinny:

You've replaced the intake cams, which means that you've tinkered with the cam to cam chains & timing there. You can be off a tooth or two or 10 etc on the cam to cam timing.

My money is STILL on the exhaust cams being out of time. You've obviously frigged with the timing belt till you're blue. I'd say without being there looking at it, the intake cams and the crank gear & timing belt are all installed correctly. Take the covers off, and double check the chain / cam sprocket (inside) timing. Follow the helms, and use the cam aligner tool in the engine toolkit (T89P-6000-XX I believe).

Make sure the sprocket is lined up correctly on the cam itself (x4)

Make sure the timing drive chain is lined up properly ("white" links)

Then re-time everything outside the engine.

I can't stress this enough - you removed the cams - that's you're problem area, I'm 99.9% sure of it. Start with what's CHANGED first, after you've got a running system that stops working (just like working with computers - ask yourself, "what'dcha do...")

Good luck. I'm still following this.

 

[Mike Kopstain]

Thanks Fred.

I didn't touch the cams, but yes, they were replaced.

Let me ask you something though, which I asked a few posts back. If my timing belt is on correctly and my intake cams are on correctly, then how can I be backfiring out of the intake? It seems to reason that if the intake cams are timed correctly to the position of the piston, then an opportunity for a backfire through the intake would never present itself. Is this reasoning correct?

With that said, do you know where I can get the cam alignment tool?

Thanks everyone. It's a relief to see that this thread is still at the top of the forum. All your help is much appreciated.

 

[jthomas68]

My only advise is to either tap it with a hammer,or put some duct tape on it.
Sorry,i felt bad for not helping out. I have been following along though,waiting to see what happens.I think you`ve gotten the right advise,you just need to carry out the suggestions.Take a REAL close look at the cam sprockets to see if there`s any evidence they`ve been off.If not,you`re down to the one last thing it could be,cam chains.Good luck Mikey boy!

 

[Yamaha V6]

Mike, if the exhaust valves are closed when they are supposed to be open, where do you think everything's going to go?

Seriously - say the rear bank exhaust cam is out of time. That's the one that drives the cam sensor, right? THAT'S one of the things that tells the system to fire the coil. If the exhaust cam is out of time, it's going to fire the thing early / late, whatever, and out the intake it comes.

Sorry for the "you", but I'm not going to go back through who did what, when, etc. - it's your job, you're working on it, you're the one asking, so I'm being lazy & saying "you".

I'm merely looking at it from an extremely logical standpoint.

• You have timed the intake cams & crankshaft with the timing belt.

• You have a timing problem (from the sound of it) - this is either a mechanical one, or an electronic one (or in the case I'm thinking of, an electronic one caused by a mechanical error.

• The electronic components have been transferred from the old engine. Assuming that everything is connected properly, that's not going to be the problem.

• The cams have been replaced by "someone" . Therefore the cam to cam drive chains have been disturbed. These affect timing.

Please check BOTH cam / cam chains timing before ruling it out & moving on to something else.

If I were in your place Mike, this would be the FIRST place I'd be looking.

Good luck.

 

[Mike Kopstain]

lol, yes that makes sense, especially if that rear bank cam is off. Ok now, last question for you Fred. Where would I obtain a cam alignment tool?

 

[RStalveyARFF]

one more thing. I believe that there is a seperate belt (or used to be) for the 3.0 or 3.2 from ford. Seeing this was a brand new 3.2, it would have the said belt. Are there 2 marks or one Mike?

 

[Mike Kopstain]

Chris, I have tried a number of the suggestions, to no avail. That is why I keep posting back here.

Erik, It is a replacement timing belt with both marks. The engine has the manual tensioner and the crank mark lines up with the 3.0 mark on the belt. I'm confident the belt is on correct.

Also, check your AOL email. I sent you an email this morning regarding those knuckles. If you didn't get it (I was having problems with my ISP) please send me an email: [email protected]

Thanks all... I will be going in Monday to check the cams and fuel pressure.

 

[SHOTIME]

Just to throw in my 2 cents. I agree with fred.

My first priorety would be to pull the heads apart and intall the cams from scratch.

Ive done this and it was a bitch of a job. I dont blame whomever if they did it wrong. its a bunch of shit to figure out.

And that also is what leads me to say do that first. Ton of stuff going on there.

 

[speedy91]

As I stated earlier, I was the one who did the installation of the 3.0 cams. If I remember correctly when I installed the cams, there were two marked links in the cam chain and there were two marks on the cam chain sprocket. So when I put the 3.0 intake cams in, I just lined up the mark on the cam chain sprocket with the mark on the cam chain and bolted it down. Did I oversimplify this process?

The timing belt that was on the engine when I bought it only had the one line on it. I compared it with an old 3.0 belt and the marks lined up so I reinstalled it. First mistake, I know now that is was a 3.2 belt mark. The car did idle fine, but did not have much power since it was out of time.

I then left for Uncle Sam and turned the nearly finished project over to a local mechanic. I asked him to reinstall the same 3.2 timing belt. Second mistake. He did and had the car running, but he did not know SHO's well and it was still out of time along with having other problems. I then decided to give Mike a shot with it and a brand new timing belt with both 3.0 and 3.2 marks.

The car has been running several times with its current set-up. Do you think a SHO could idle and drive if it had an exhaust cam out of time? I would think not, but I am learning here just like Mike.

Thanks again for all the advice.
Eric

 

[luigisho]

If time wasn't too far out I suppose it could run very poorly.

Fred is right on here. There are areas mentioned that are logically suspect, as they are not in original config.

1- fuel pump wiring is frayed or not in good shape.

2- cams were swapped

3- possible that all the wiring isn't connected properly or something is loose since everything was disconnected to swap the motor.

Fuel pump is the easiest thing to eliminate first.

If you suspect the cams, which is most likely, you will need to redo the install.

Wiring is less likely but could be a real pita. Maybe a breakout box would detect that all the wiring is operational.

<small>[ March 13, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: luigisho ]</small>

 

[SHOTIME]

speedy91:

Unfortunatly you did over simplify.

Start again using the directions straight out of the service manual, and use the tool, or Fax.

Firing into the intake and rough running is a timing issue.

Good luck man.

 

[speedy91]

SHOTIME
Unfortunatly you did over simplify.

Start again using the directions straight out of the service manual, and use the tool, or Fax.

Firing into the intake and rough running is a timing issue.

Good luck man. [/QB]

I think we found the problem Mike.
Thanks again,
Eric

 

[Yamaha V6]

Paypal is [email protected] ... wink

 

[Mike Kopstain]

lol... we will see Monday. My Paypal account is armed and ready to fire.

 

[Mike Kopstain]

Well, I have been looking for the cam alignment tool and no one seems to have one or even know where I can get one. Any of you have a source on that part?

Additionally, I talked to a Tim at SHO Shop and he says he knows of nothing that they could fax me.

So I'm turning it bac over to you guys. If you have a source on this alignment tool or the template, either would be appreciated.

 

[Off Road SHO]

If it's the template that I'm thinking about, you can make a quickie one with two crescent wrenches and a c-clamp. If both of our cams, intake and exhaust, have a hex surface used for turning, you can use a crescent wrench on each one. Where the handles of the wrenches cross, clamp them together with the c-clamp and voila', your cams are immobilized.
The beauty of the crescent wrenches, is that you can adjust the tightness of the jaws to line up the cam positions just right.

Tom

 

[Sho-N-Go]

I Totally agree with Fred. I would bet money on the exhaust cam or cams. I know you already came to that conclusion. I have done this the car can run. In fact the one I did it too was drove around for 3 weeks when we were trying to figure it out. You do not need the tool to see if it is out of time just put it at TDC pull the cam covers and LOOK you will see the flat spots in the cams were the tool goes. just look and see if they look like they are in the same position. If you need a tool I could let you use mine

 

[Yamaha V6]

So Mike, what's the verdict? Personally, I'm "intrigued" ( wink ), so what was the problem with the car (or is it still unknown)?