Even MORE timing belt trivia!

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Mike Kopstain

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Hey guys,

I'm at my wits end here and I am looking for ANY help or insight. To premise the problems you are about to read, here is a little summary of the problem.

We received this car, not running. It is a 3.2 conversion with 0 miles. The owner took it to his local mechanic originally to have the car's loose end's tied up. The mechanic ended up putting the timing belt on wrong, forgot the retaining disc on the crank and frayed some fuel pump wires. From there, we were contracted to finish the car. Thinking this was a simple timing belt replacement, we put everything back on and the car wouldn't fire. What you read below is a detailed account of what we experienced afterwards...

The first thing we did was check the spark plug order. Sure enough, his mechanic reversed cylinder's 5 and 6 on the coil. Still no start.

The two cam sprocket marks were at 12 O' clock, matching the inner timing cover marks, the crank mark was at 5 O' clock, lined up with the mark on the oil pump housing, the belt's writing was facing away from me, the marks were lined up with both cams and the 3.0 mark on the crank. Tension was applied. The car procedes to backfire when turning over.

From there, we pulled the intake and valve covers. The two cams on each bank of cylinders appear to be in time with each other. When lined up, the marks are exactly opposite of each other. So we put everything back on. Still no go.

We think for a second that maybe the cam sensor is bad and we throw on a known good spare. Still, nothing. Here is what the car does have. It has spark. I pulled a couple wires and checked. We know we have that. It has a tach signal and the tach works. We have fuel (we think). When pressing the valve, we get fuel. It doesn't spray out, but it definetly is under pressure. Additionally to that, we have had the car running ONCE, albeit out of time.

As a last ditch effort, we removed the Y pipe thinking perhaps the cats are clogged. (We don't know the history on the Y pipe. It appears to be used) There was no change. The car is in time but it sounds like it's not. As you can see, we are at our wits end. I'm not too keen on being defeated by a car, especially two in one week. (Speaking of which, Paul, Craig's control arms showed know signs of even beginning to move tonight. :>) ) If you can offer ANY help here, even small, it is much appreciated.

Common guys, teach me something here. Point out something obvious that I missed. I'm beginning to think that someone is trying to tell me I shouldn't be working on cars. :>)

If you list something and that ends up being my problem, I will send (or Paypal) you a $25.00 check. Obviously, it would go to the first person to mention the problem. :>) I am an honest guy, or so I like to tell myself.

~ Defeated SHO "Specialist"
 

luigisho

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I don't suppose it's possible to have the car 180 degrees out of phase? Spark to #1 cyl? Good pcm? Check the fuel pressure at the rail with a gauge. How about a large vacuum leak?
 

RStalveyARFF

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here are things I would check. First, cylinders 4, 5, and 6 on the coil pack: they're not in order like 1-3, make sure of that. I can't remember exactly, I believe 4 is in the middle. Ground on the LR of the intake, is it there, and is it grounded to the body? What marks did you use to check the cam timing? if he just swapped 3.0 cams into a 3.2, he could have put a sprocket on backwards. Use a cam alignment tool to verify cam timing. If you don't have one, I believe Tom G has a template that he can fax you, to keep the proper scale. Is it a genuine motorcraft t-belt? If so, is it the 3.2 one? And finally, did you verify the injector wiring is correct? When you try to crank it, any noises being made? Is the CPS gapped correctly? Run a fuel pressure gauge on the rail just to verify the pressure. Who knows, maybe the lines were reversed when installed. Good luck
 

Mr Anonymous

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Here's what I'd do:

1. Verify that the MTX EEC harness was used and not the ATX harness by mistake. The easiest way is to check the O2 connectors - 3-wire=MTX, 4-wire=ATX.

2. Verify the plug wire routing (again):
plugwiringpicture.jpg


3. Verify injector wiring order: (all injectors share a common red lead, the second lead is colored as below, 'main color/stripe color')

CYL COLOR
1 Tan
2 White
3 Brown/White
4 Brown/Lt. Blue
5 Tan/Black
6 Lt. Green/Orange

4. Verify fuel pressure (AutoZone's loan-a-tool program if you need a gauge)

5. Double-check all your connectors and wiring -- there might be damage to the harness somewhere that you're not seeing.

It sounds to me from your description that the cam timing is OK. I'm leaning towards an injector firing order problem, or an EEC harness problem. If everything above checks out OK and you still have no luck, as a last-ditch I would try another PCM.
 

rangerj

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Mike,

I feel for you Mike. When you say this is a 3.2 conversion, is it a 3.2 block with 3.0 heads, cams, etc.? Or, is this a 3.2 complete engine being put into the place of a 3.0 Yamaha.

I don't know if it makes a difference, but the question in my mind is, are the computers different? Do they have a different advance curve?
Was the computer changed? Did the owner get a computer for a SLO 3.0L?

As far as I remember they both (3.2 and 3.0 SHO) have the same firing order, that is 1,2,3,4,5,6, so the advance curve should not matter.

Are the cams in the right place? Is it possible to mix up the cams, that is have the rear bank cams on the front bank, or even one of the set of cams switched around on each bank.

If you decide to test this, you could rotate the engine by hand and see what the cams and valves do in relation to what they should do as you rotate through the firing order.

It seems obvious that it is a timing issue, but is it an electronic or mechanical timing issue?

Please let us know what you finally find out. Inquiring minds want to know. LOL, rangerj
 

Mike Kopstain

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Chris, it appears to be the proper eec harness.

Guy's just to go back to the basics here...

I put the belt on, rotated it to remove slack, placed tension on it and then rotated the crank sprocket mark to the 5 0' clock position. After doing that, I rotated the crank so the crank sprocket mark would line up with the index mark on the oil pump housing (appr 5 0' clock). The two cam marks line up perfectly with the inner timing belt cover index marks at 12 0' clock. That does mean that the belt is on correctly and that it didn't jump any teeth when tensioning, right?
 

rangerj

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Mike,

I'm going to think out loud here. The crank sprocket revolves two times to the one time of the cam sprockets, right (I think)?

Bring the number one piston up to TDC on the compression stroke, that is all valves closed, which should leave the crank sprocket lined up, and the cam sprockets lined up.

Could you be off 180 degrees with the crank sprocket, in other words off by one revelution of the crank (timed to fire on the exaust stroke of the no. 1 piston)?

Sorry if I insulted you. rangerj

PS I did this once on a Chrysler 4 banger!
 

revhardSHO

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Whats the history on this 3.2L w/ 0 miles? Is it a bored out 3.0L?

Seeing as you've had it running for a sec this may not be worth your while, but you may want to run a compression check. Perhaps you have some cracked/holed pistons causing major blow-by? (although i find that unlikly on an engine with 0 miles)<----just a thought

another thing...check all the grounds!!!
Silas
 

rangerj

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Mike,

This post is not intended for you.

The cylinder identification sensor, (CID), or camshaft position sensor, can tell the computer one thing. That is when one camshaft is in position for the number one piston to be on its compression stroke.

In order for the CID to be accurate, it relies on the mechanical connection of the cams, via their chains, and the connection of the cams with the crankshaft via the timing belt.

Therefore, the cams must be syncronized with each other, and they also must be syncronized with the crankshaft. If the cams and/or the crankshaft are not properly syncronized, and therefore mechanically out of time, the CID cannot correct or compensate for it.

In conclusion, proper mechanical timing does matter! Think about it. rangerj
 

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rangerj:

Could you be off 180 degrees with the crank sprocket, in other words off by one revelution of the crank (timed to fire on the exaust stroke of the no. 1 piston)?

Sorry if I insulted you. rangerj

PS I did this once on a Chrysler 4 banger!
No, you can't have an exhaust stroke and an intake stroke defined until you have the valvetrain connected.

You can spin the crank as many times as you want with the timing belt disconnected. As long as all the marks are aligned, it should be fine.

Think about this: The piston only moves up and down. It cannot create an exhaust stroke, and TDC happens every 360 degrees of crank rotation. With all the timing marks lined up, you cannot have anything off 180 degrees.

Mike: It sure sounds like timing to me. Have you tried putting the belt one tooth to either direction on the crank pulley (intentionally off) to see if that solves it? Also: I think you mentioned it, but you did check the slave cam drive chains right? I also dont know if it is possible, but could they have switched the slave sprockets? From the front head to back, or intake to exhaust? Just some thoughts.
 

Mike Kopstain

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Arggg... Timing is correct. I'm sure of it, unless one of the exhaust cams is off, but then I assume that we would be running into a zero compression situation some where along the line. I guess what I don't understand is how I could be backfiring, when I am 100% certain that those intake cams are on correct and the belt is correct. Assuming the problem is not spark, which I definetly haven't ruled out, shouldn't the fact that I am backfiring through the intake indicate a problem with the timing of the intake cams in relation to the crank? I mean, regardless of how far off the exhaust cams are, if the car is pushing compressed air out of the intake, would that not indicate an intake valve timing problem? And if that is the case, and I am (for once :) ) correct, where do I look now? I'm not in a position where I have a lot more options to check.

When I go in there tomorrow (If I go in there tomorrow) I have few things to check. I can unplug the DIS and see if the motor still sounds like it's fighting itself when it's starting. If it's spark, it may be lighting the mixture with the intake valve open, accounting for my backfire, but after that, I'm honestly at a loss.

<small>[ March 12, 2003, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Mikeys_Taurus ]</small>
 

AutoSHO

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What about the front and rear intake cams? Can they accidentally be swapped? That would account for the intake mis-timing?
 

haydenm315

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rangerj:

Are the cams in the right place? Is it possible to mix up the cams, that is have the rear bank cams on the front bank, or even one of the set of cams switched around on each bank.
I think all 4 cams are of different lengths. I replaced my stock cams with stage II cams and I believe there was no way to mix up the cams if I remember correctly. Now I'm becoming a bit paranoid and think that the front and rear intake cams could be swapped but I swear they were all different lenghts.

It would be pretty lame if the fuel filter was installed backwards. I think that would keep the car from starting as well. I wonder if it's possible to pull koeo codes?
 

rangerj

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Mike,

In the original post you say the motor has zero miles on it. That tells me it has been recently rebuilt. Is there any way you can talk to the rebuilder. Maybe he/she has notes from the rebuild.

I'm thinking about valve hight, valve spring hight, and again the cams. Something is f'-d up. Is it possible to put the cam sprockets on backwards, or on the wrong side (bank). shrug

I do not remember them being left or right, or there being a front or back side, other than the alignment marks. Darn, this is weird! rangerj
 

Mike Kopstain

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Actually, 0 miles as in this is a new engine.

Lucky guy... well, that is when it's running. :)

Any other help guys? The vane on the cam sensor is on correct.
 

Mr Anonymous

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Mikeys_Taurus:
Actually, 0 miles as in this is a new engine.

Lucky guy... well, that is when it's running. :)

Any other help guys? The vane on the cam sensor is on correct.
What was the result of your fuel pressure test?

How did the injector wiring order look? If they are firing in the wrong order, that could account for the backfiring through the intake and the no-start condition.

Any chance that the car has somehow been made positive-ground and the starter is spinning backwards??? (I know it's a stretch, but hey, at this point why not!?!?) eek!
 

the912guy

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You mentioned in the original post that there were some frayed fuel pump wires when you got the car in the first place - that, combined with the symptoms you're experiencing when cranking and the fact that you haven't VERIFIED sufficent fuel pressure at the fuel rail with a gauge (as far as I can tell from the posts so far) sure makes me think you've got a fuel pressure problem.

Put a good fuel pressure gauge on that thing before you tear your hair out rechecking cam and spark plug wiring yet again. Wouldn't hurt to reverify injector firing pattern again, though.

I had a 5.0 give me very similiar symptoms when the fuel pump was going out, and a regular Taurus that did almost the same thing when I tripped the inertia switch by slamming the trunk too hard.
 

revhardSHO

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Any chance that the car has somehow been made positive-ground and the starter is spinning backwards??? (I know it's a stretch, but hey, at this point why not!?!?)

Not sure, but dont our SHO engines use a Throw-out type bendix? If so it could only engage the flywheel if spinning the right way. Then again i could be wrong.

Since you've verified timing a million times, perhaps you should check for your problem elsewhere. Whats the history on the heads? Have they been inspected/rebuilt?
 

speedy91

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Ok, it is about time I jump in here since it is my car and I did most of the work on it. Mike is been great to work with to help me get my car back on the road since I am being occupied by Uncle Sam. The car has a new 190-fuel pump just installed and working well (the last time I saw the car). The 3.2 is a zero mile engine with 3.2 heads and 3.0 intake cams, which I installed. I am almost positive that I put them together right, but I too make mistakes. I will try to answer as many questions as I can to help the process along.

Does everyone think it is a mechanical timing issue or an electrical issue?
Thanks for the help.
Eric
 

rangerj

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Mike and Eric,

It is getting spark and fuel. The backfire through the intake indicates a timing issue.

The question is, is it due to a mechanical reason or an electronic reason.

Eric, am I correct in assuming that the new motor came assembled with the heads already on the block, and that you swapped the 3.2 cams for the 3.0 cams. Did you use the 3.0 sprockets as well.

I do not know if the sprockets are different from the 3.2 sprockets, but I do know that the white mark on the timing belt is different for the two engines.

If I remember the new belt has two marks for the crank sprocket, on labled 3.0, and one labled 3.2. They are one or two teeth apart. Again, this is from memory.

Then there is the electronic timing. Can we assume that the engine was "bare bones", and that you transferred all of the electronics from the old engine?

This is an interesting puzzle.

Eric, good luck whereever Uncle Sam sends you. I hope it will not be a long deployment. CYA. rangerj
 
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