eletric soopachargah...not just an ebay scam

[adidasho]

I always thought that, hey, if a vacuum can do it, why not a car? I researched a little bit and talked with some car experts and found suprisingly nothing. However, i finally reached some closure on the issue reading my latest issue of R&T, which now I can't find to quote. However, it said that electric superchargers were indeed possible, and a great alternative, but because of the low voltage on a car you could get very little boost. They went on to say that you would have to produce upwards of 40 volts to get any significant boost, and I think then you could still get only 5.5 pounds improvement(correct me if my facts are wrong). I thought that was cool...and there;s a very easy solution. I figure with 120 volts AC, if you recitified that to DC, you could get about 15 pounds boost, which is more than sufficient, so all you need is a bunch of really long extension cords!

 

[jthomas68]

FPS was looking into them a while back if i heard correctly.

 

[AutoSHO]

Oh nevermind.

Its been said before, I'm saying it again, it is impractical to put an electric supercharger in a car. Why not just turbocharge it.

 

[jelloslug]

The voltage has nothing to do with the ultimate speed a DC motor can reach. If you want a motor to run at 2000 RPM at 12 volts you get a motor designed to run that speed, if you want 10000 RPM at 12 volts you get one designed to that speed. There are thing to remember though. A vacuum cleaner is 120 volts at around 10-12 amps, that's 1200 to 1440 watts. Now at 12 volts that same current rating jump to 100-120 amps for the same wattage. You would need at least one extra alternator just to keep up. In all reality you would just use a standard supercharger and just drive it with a motor and you would need a much larger motor to drive it. Its not impossible to make work, you would just have to put a lot of thought into it. A better approach would be two alternators in series to get the voltage up to 24 volts and use a 24 volt motor, this is so you are not dealing with current draws in the 200-300 amp range (you need big wire for that and none of that stereo shop crap). If you are serious about it let me know, I design DC motors for a living and my wife designs fans and blowers, I might be able to help you out.

 

[Off Road SHO]

OKAY, why are you guys thinking about electric blowers? You cannot get enough airflow with them at 12 or 24 volts.

If you really want to do a shade tree blower setup, use two of these http://www.stihlusa.com/blowers/SR340_SR420.html

mounted in the trunk with intake and cooling air drawn in through vents somehow and exhaust and compressed air piped to the outside and up front to your MAF intake. You'd have to have a waste gate of some sort to bleed off unwanted pressure at low rpms. Can you imagine what that would sound like at the staring line? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

Tom

 

[jelloslug]

No that will not work, you need flow AND pressure not one or the other. You will have to use somthing that is designed to for the proper amount of flow at pressure, vacuum cleaner motors and leaf blowers don't do that. You should use a supercharger or a turbocharger and drive it with the electric motor. Remember you have two seperate parts to this setup: the motor and the air pump (supercharger or turbocharger), the voltage you want to run the motor at has nothing to do with the air pump. You just need to get a motor that is designed to run the speed you want to get the air pump to spin the correct speed.

 

[Dr.Evil]

jelloslug:
You should use a supercharger or a turbocharger and drive it with the electric motor.

So would that really work if you hooked it all up correctly? How would you get the electric motor to drive the turbo or S/C? I could see how it could be done on a S/C, but not on a turbo. That would be pretty cool if it is possiable...

 

[jelloslug]

To hook a motor up to a Turbo you would just remove the drive impeller and couple the shaft to the motor or use a belt/chain setup to change the speed. There is no reason why it should not work as long as you use parts that can do the job, no leaf blowers, boat ventilators or stuff like that. It does not matter what you use to spin a turbocharger or supercharger, it does matter how fast you spin them and that your drive has the torque to spool up fast and not bog down. That's the big problem with using electric motors for the drive system, a motor big enough to do the job will draw a ton of current at 12 volts (way more than you alternator can produce) so you must add an extra alternator if you even want a small amount of boost. I have put some though in to the electric supercharger concept, there are a few thing I don't know though, the big one is how much torque is required to drive a specific supercharger or turbocharger at a specific RPM and pressure? I don't really know much about forced induction and if I had the answer to a few questions I could say what size of motor would be needed.

<small>[ June 11, 2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: jelloslug ]</small>

 

[autobahnsho]

hehehe If you don't need any trunk space you could get an ac-ac transformer and run a high hertz fan..

Some of the Army radio vans I work on use 400hz fans that can push a LOT of air... Said transformers are big, heavy, and draw a TON of power though... thumb

 

[mholhut]

I don't want to get everyone's hopes up, but actually, there are several electric superchargers for both normally aspirated and turbocharged cars. A company out of California called Turbodyne has been making these for the past several years. They've run into a bunch of snafu's early on regarding legal, patent, and import/export problems. Their premis is that an electric turbo or SC is far more of an environmentally friendly product.

They were attempting to have auto manufacturers use these as OEM equipment on new vehicles... starting with diesel trucks first and moving on to traditional transportation. They just released that they will be exporting these products to China (I think) for use in production vehicles.

Their main push is on a product called the Dynacharger for their commercial applications.

The product we'd all be interested in was the Turbopac 1500

...and the Turbopac 2500

Their third product is called the Turboflow, but I do not know it's intended use.

Here is the Turbopac 1500 Installed:

I called them a few years ago and were quite amazed that a car enthusiast was interested in their product. I couldn't get them to give me a price or even a test unit for R&D purposes.

So, yes, there is an electric blower on the market, and apparently, it does work. Just think, you wouldn't have to worry about running a drive shaft or a pully system... just plop the battery in the trunk and mount this bad larry any way you please! Someone want to give them a call? There is an order button at the bottom of the Turbopac 1500 page, but it does not list any prices... probably for getting a quote. Any takers?

One last thing before you all go running to the bank... this is an on-demand unit only. Meaning, that it will only activate when there is a need for more power... probably comes on at WOT and only for a short period of time. What that time length is, I don't know, but it's designed for power when you want it (i.e. passing). Then the unit shuts off if demand isn't detected.

And people think I have no use on this forum shrug

<small>[ June 14, 2003, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: mholhut ]</small>

 

[adidasho]

well, get this, a friend made a home-made one, I don't think it makes any difference, but here's what he did: he has a Honda Accord V6, he took out the bottom half of the airbox below the filter, and he wired up two small electric fans to blow constantly straight into the filter....maybe .005 hp gained.....

 

[pete c]

there is one possible advantage I see.

An electric blower could be used for short bursts of power when needed. It would not be used to push you down the freeway at 170 mph for extended time, but, it could be used to possibly get you down the 1/4 mile a bit quicker.

You would mount the blower so that when not in use, it is out of the air path so as not to impede normal prformance. Imagine a y-pipe with the normal airpath one side of the y. You would also need a check valve to keep the boosted air from blowing back through the airfilter. When you needed the boost to dispatch a pesky civic, flooring the accelerator would close a switch providing a very high current motor with mucho amps straight from your battery. Your battery has the power output to run the starter, it should suffice to do this. You would not need a heavy duty alternator. You would be using the power storage capabilities of your alternator. Just remember, this would be used only for short burst of power when needed. A high current motor such as this has a very high heat output and would burn up in short order if run for more than 10 or 15 seconds.

 

[rbohm]

the last electric blower i saw had a maximum boost of 3.5psi. considering the fact that a paxton or vortech blower takes about 20-30hp to run at full boost, you are not going to an electric motor small enough to power the blower to make the kind of boost you really want. that and the electric motor adds weight where you dont want it, and the believe the belt and drive system for a vortech blower are going to be lighter overall. perhaps one day when 40hp electric motors can be made small enough and light enough to power a poaxton or vortech blower, then you will have something, but for now, not feasable.

 

[mkoronowski]

wink
Vendors like Paxton, Vortec, and Turbodyne all manufacture or assemble reasonable units. During one of my recent past careers, I've worked on aero designs for both Paxton and Vortec. While it won't mean anything to most, please keep in mind that an IC engine is a positive displacement device and a turbo is a dynamic device. Because of this difference, matching the turbo to the engine for a specific range of operation is critically important.

By trial and error, each of these companies developed a set of rules for sizing the appropriate centrifugal blower to a given car. Analytically, the critical aero (not-mechanical) factors are, engine displacement, half (4-cycle) engine speed (or range of speeds), volumetric efficiency/inlet density and the desired power gain. This translates into the turbo’s discharge volume flow and discharge pressure. Concepts, like "Specific Speed" are used to estimate turbo shaft speed and blower efficiency (if you are estimating over 80% for an automotive street centrifugal blower your may be in funny land). From here we know the required power and, if given the freedom, can choose between electric or direct drive. In reality, it is really much more complex.

Ok…..lets get off the soap-box; I would just like to share some words of caution.

Ask the vendor to tell you what engine rpm the turbo is ideally matched to. Each turbo will be a little different. I would recommend not to over-do it. The SHO is a street machine, we are talking Yamaha not Keith Black.

Think in terms of the hp limits and life designed into the drive train. Think in terms of connecting rod bearings, crankshaft bearings and the transmission. Think in terms of how aggressively you drive. In other words, if you already loose transmissions, your going to loose more than before.

When a turbo is properly matched on hardware that is designed to withstand the extra power, life can be wonderful. If you match it wrong, either life stinks or you only live once.

Drive Safe.

 

[fred79]

i think the advantage of an electric supercharger would be the ability to constantly varry teh boost according to situation rather than using the engine to overdrive the blower and need to blow off over pressure. with a electric drive you could have it any way you wanted it. like higher boost early and lesser towards high RPM making power early and droping off toward peek to not over strain other parts.
also it would give the ability to not use teh blower at all during normal use.
to really develope this would require a great deal of research and programing as well as major hardware changes to the vehicle.

similar result may be able to be achieve with a mechanical drive blower with a electric clutch of some kind like on a ac compressor.

 

[jelloslug]

Ahhh, a post back from the dead. Like a said before, electric driven forced induction is a very do-able thing if done correctly. The biggest hurdle is powering the electric motor; everything else is just sizing the components to do the job.

 

[Bizzy]

Wow, an oldie.....moving over to the new section for Superchargers and Nitrous. Not sure why...

 

[SHO92]

Thomas Knight now sells an electric super charger, that is made to be used like a Nitrous kit. Its a screw style blower with 3 screws and motor for each one. If you have looked in most of the recent issues of import mags, you've probably seen the add. I know it was in last months Sport Compact. The picture is a V6 Eclipse with the electric blower on it.

<small>[ February 27, 2004, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: SHO92 ]</small>

 

[Lance Cheney]

Thomas Knight's idea is pretty primitive.

There was a small discussion here:
Discussion in gen3 area

With a large battery pack and the right controller you could definitely make a nice setup, so long as you were ok with the short burst restriction (with a good controller and properly sized motor you could go until the battery ran out, but you'd probably be better off setting it up with lighter low-duty-cycle motors like the Thomas Knight ones are and being limited to 10-15 second bursts).


The Turbopac 1500 looks like even more of a joke. They say "A solid state sealed motor controller is connected to the vehicle's battery system. The controller provides 3-phase current to a Permanent Magnet Brushless DC motor. The motor is directly coupled to the compressor which spools up to operating speed in a fraction of a second."

And:
"Electrical Requirements

The standard vehicle alternator and battery are generally adequate for operation of the TurbopacTM. Power requirements of the TurbopacTM depends on the size of the engine and therefore quantity and mass flow of air. A larger engine takes more air and therefore more electrical power is needed for a constant boost pressure. As an approximation, for any given engine, TurbopacTM draws about 25% of the electrical current of a starter motor for the same engine, but only for short bursts of several seconds. "


But, as was already stated, a supercharger is going to be using 20-30 HP at full boost on a stock SHO. That's 15,000 watts, or 1300A @ 12V. I can guaranteed your starter isn't drawing anywhere NEAR 1300A. Their application must be for 1L Geo Metros, or small diesel engines running with 2000 RPM redlines.

Last note, if you look at the Turbopac 2500 page, they have a table at the bottom about nominal operation. They show 100CFM @ 5.6PSI for their big one (24V, 200A). 4800 W -- that might be reasonable, since 100CFM is really small anyway (putting this into perspective, at 2000 RPM a 3L motor will be pulling 3000L @ 100% VE, or ~105 CFM). They list it being ok for 7-15L engines, which hints at it being for diesel small-truck motors (which would be running at 500-1000 RPM when this thing is actually effective). I think it's intended to reduce lag on turbodiesels (note their comment about soot reduction as well, something that is produced in copious abundance when you have a diesel engine that goes from 0 load to full throttle when the turbo is spun down).

I was looking at Lysholm screw-type blowers for the SHO awhile back and getting enough boost to produce 400HP takes about 35HP input to the blower. It was also a pretty good size unit -- not sure whether it would fit in the engine compartment -- and the 400 HP output was about as fast as it was rated, RPM-wise. To get over 400 you'd need the next size up.

-Lance

<small>[ February 27, 2004, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Lance Cheney ]</small>

 

[James Downing]

As of now, the electric motors cannot reach the speeds needed with a centrifugal supercharger while maintaining power to turn it effectively. Would an electric motor be more-likely to work with a roots or whipple s/c? especially since they require less rpm (yet more power I assume)?