EGR cleaning and other questions

[avatar28]

You guys sick of me and my n00b questions yet?

Is there a guide somewhere for the EGR cleaning? I've searched through several pages of threads here and didn't find one. Lots of people talking about cleaning it and saying to do a search but no actual guide like do A then B then C (preferably with pictures).

Background: I replaced the camshaft sensor last weekend (although I didn't deal with the seals yet) and cleared the codes. Tach is working and the car starts better although it still takes several seconds of cranking most of the time.

I still have to replace the thermostat, hopefully I can do that this weekend. Temp gauge normally just gets up to between the A and L in normal unless I'm idling extensively or doing more city driving. Here are the symptoms I'm currently seeing:

• A couple of times the car bucked like the engine died momentarily and caught again. This only happened a couple of times early on after replacing the CMPS. CEL came on momentarily and went back off, it never stored a code.
• TERRIBLE fuel economy, I'd estimate maybe 15 miles/gallon at best. I forgot to reset the trip odometer when I filled up the first couple of times but I'd estimate I'm only getting about 200ish miles to a full tank of premium gas.
• Performance is meh. Definitely not what I expected from a SHO (although having never driven one, maybe I just expected too much). I'm doubtful it would beat my wife's 2014 Camry with a 4 cylinder. It's especially sucky with the 87 octane I put in the last time I filled up but even with premium it wasn't great, especially off the line.
• When the engine is running a little warmer, the CEL will come on after a few minutes of driving. The exact length is anywhere from a minute or two to not coming on at all but once it does come on it will keep happening until the car has been off long enough to cool significantly.
• When I let it idle for a while so that the engine does get close to normal operating temps (middle of the gauge) the CEL doesn't come on until I actually start driving (this is expected though right?)
• Also there is a much more noticeable smell of oil and gas inside the car when temp is getting to the middle of NORMAL. There is a small exhaust leak somewhere around the front cat, I think just behind it. I assume that's where I'm smelling it from but I really have no idea.
• I pulled the codes yesterday and it's giving me a 332.

A few other questions I'll go ahead and ask instead of making a bunch of separate threads.

• I suspect the fuel pump is the culprit behind the still slow starts. If I've run the engine recently it starts faster and letting it fully pressurize improves it a bit and doing it multiple times definitely improves it. Fuel pressure is easy to check, right? Just get a gauge and connect it to the schrader valve on the fuel rail? Would a basic tire pressure gauge work or do I need a specialty one?
• I have noticed that one of the rubber pieces that hold the mufflers up has sheared through on one side and is halfway sheared on the other. How hard are these to replace and is it something the auto parts stores would normally carry?
• There is a film of oil all over the engine compartment on the passenger side near the firewall. The EEC test harness, for instance, has oil all over it as do most other things. There's a puddle of oil beneath where the CMP sensor was. Would a leaky camshaft seal do that or is it indicative of another problem? Best way to clean it? If I do it low pressure, will the degreaser at the carwash work (it's low pressure) or should I stick with Gunk? I'd rather do it at the car wash since our outdoor faucet is all wrapped up for winter. Anything in particular I should watch out for?
• When I first got the car, there was oil around the front plug seals. Maybe related to the previous item, maybe not. I haven't pulled the plug wires to see if the plug wells are full or not yet.
• When it's really cold and I first go start the car in the morning, my wipers come on like I hit the spray even though I didn't touch it. Bad multifunction switch it sounds like.
• All the rubber pieces between parts of my suspension (bushings?) are dry rotted to ****. Am I in for a bad time trying to fix them?
• I want to Seafoam the engine. Where's the best place to put it in to get all the cylinders? There was a thread with pictures but then someone else said that the recommended location would only get one side. Will it hurt the MAF if I put it in to the air stream before it or right after? In previous cars I believe I poured it slowly into the airstream just before the butterfly valve while revving the engine to increase airflow. Will the car actually run with the MAF disconnected? If so I could maybe remove it and pour it slowly into the opening where it went. And, yes, I know that some people feel that Seafoam and the like are just snake oil. I don't need to know that. Just assume that I'm going to do it anyways and help me do it the best way possible.
• If I want to look for a vacuum leak is spraying the hoses with starter fluid the best way to do it besides taking it to an actual mechanic to get a smoke test done? If I take it somewhere, what's the typical charge for just that test?

Um, I think that's all I can think of for now. Keep in mind that despite the n00b questions, I'm actually capable of doing most of the not overly complicated repairs. I just don't necessarily know all the terminology or where everything is located and how to get to it yet; I got thrown in the deep end when I got this thing. I could probably even do a 60k although I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be about doing it by myself and I'd need some additional tools.

Thanks for taking the time to read through this long-ass post and for your help on this and all my other posts. I really do appreciate it.
:thankyou:

 

[Off Road SHO]

I don't have time right now to delve into all your questions, but I have described in someone's thread on how to clean the entire EGR path.

Fuel pressure is created by TWO things, the fuel pump AND the fuel pressure regulator. Without a functioning regulator, the fuel pump just pumps fuel from the tank and then to the tank. Without the regulator in the line after the injector to squeeze off the return line, no pressure will build up. When the regulator starts to go out, it will look exactly like a weak fuel pump. It is just a variable valve that opens up or closes according to how much vacuum it sees from the intake manifold.

Tom

 

[rubydist]

I'm not sure I have the motivation to type enough just now to answer all your questions either, but here is some input:

The egr not working will cause the CEL to come on once the engine gets into closed loop operation. That can be as short as a minute if the engine is warm, and as long as 20 minutes if the thermostat is stuck open and the coolant temp never comes up properly. For a normally operating engine, the open loop period lasts 1-7 minutes from startup. So, if the CEL comes on in the time window, and stays on, it could be the egr that it is complaining about. However, I have never seen an occasion where the egr code would cause the CEL to come on for a short time and then go off again (until the engine is turned off.)

However, the bad egr will not cause the performance to be 'meh', nor will it cause terrible gas mileage (although it can cost you a little in mileage). Related to that, 200 miles per tank doesn't tell us much, because some fuel gauges read empty when the tank is half full, so we need to know also how many gallons it takes to go the 200 miles. And, depending on the type of driving you do, and the type of driver you are, 15 mpg is not necessarily unusual or 'terrible' - if you drive all stop and go, and you like to mash on the go pedal, that is about what you get.

I have done the Seafoam thing and am not a fan. If you want to try to clean up the engine, the AutoRx is a better choice, imho. Any vacuum line that connects *after* the throttle body would suck stuff into the engine - the closer that vacuum line is to the throttle body, the better job it will do of getting it distributed to all cylinders. Another alternative (which I prefer even more than AutoRx) is to buy some Acetone and just put about 5 oz in each tankful for about 4-6 tanks. Acetone is a great solvent (and great paint remover so be careful) and in that dilution it will remove the crap slowly so you don't get a lot of extra engine wear from a bunch of abrasive carbon stuff floating around in the cylinders.

I would take a hard look at the plug wells - if there is oil in them, you need to replace the valve cover gaskets, the plugs and the wires. That might make an amazing difference in both performance and economy.

 

[SHOtimer]

Sounds like your SHO needs some help.

You should probably get up to speed on the maintanence to then figure out where the problem areas are.

1. I would try cleaning the MAF sensor - you can use brake cleaner, or they sell specific MAF cleaning spray at auto parts stores.

2. I would check the plug wells for oil. If they are full of oil do not just take the plugs out. You will need to get the oil out before removing the plugs. When I first got my SHO i used a piece of paper towel on the end of a pick to get the very last bits out. Whatever you don't get out goes into the combustion chamber.

3. New plugs and wires will probably do you good also. You will need to remove the intake in order to do that. This will gain you access to clean the EGR.

4. The EGR goes into the side of the intake and into the throttle body. The 'nostrils' in the throttle body usually get clogged along with the passages in the intake. The intake has allen plugs that you can remove and help you clean out the EGR tubes. I used Chemtool and picks to get mine clean. Also gives you a good opportunity to clean out the rest of the intake.

What kind of SHO do you have?

Year? MTX/ATX? Miles?

Doug

 

[93markVIII]

what kind of sho do you have?

Year? Mtx/atx? Miles?

Doug

95 atx.

 

[avatar28]

I don't have time right now to delve into all your questions, but I have described in someone's thread on how to clean the entire EGR path.

Thanks. That gave me enough of a starting point to find it. Still wish I had pictures but, eh.

Fuel pressure is created by TWO things, the fuel pump AND the fuel pressure regulator. Without a functioning regulator, the fuel pump just pumps fuel from the tank and then to the tank. Without the regulator in the line after the injector to squeeze off the return line, no pressure will build up. When the regulator starts to go out, it will look exactly like a weak fuel pump. It is just a variable valve that opens up or closes according to how much vacuum it sees from the intake manifold.

So how do I test it to know if it's the pump or the regulator? Obviously the regulator would probably be preferable. I've had to drop a tank to change out a fuel pump before. Not one of my favorite repairs.

I'm not sure I have the motivation to type enough just now to answer all your questions either, but here is some input:

However, I have never seen an occasion where the egr code would cause the CEL to come on for a short time and then go off again (until the engine is turned off.)

That's fine. I put it all out there instead of trying to make a bunch of threads. I appreciate whatever help I get. The part about closed loop I did already know. The CEL going off only happened a couple of times and never left a code. That sort of makes me think it was trying to stall out or it was something else transient but I thought I should toss it out there just in case.

However, the bad egr will not cause the performance to be 'meh', nor will it cause terrible gas mileage (although it can cost you a little in mileage). Related to that, 200 miles per tank doesn't tell us much, because some fuel gauges read empty when the tank is half full, so we need to know also how many gallons it takes to go the 200 miles. And, depending on the type of driving you do, and the type of driver you are, 15 mpg is not necessarily unusual or 'terrible' - if you drive all stop and go, and you like to mash on the go pedal, that is about what you get.

I'm usually pretty easy on it. Usually shifts about 3000-3500. Maybe a little closer to 4000-5000 if I'm merging onto the highway or need to get going in a hurry. You needed hard numbers for the mileage so I went and got gas. 96 miles and 7.3 gallons. Works out to about 13 mpg. :cry:

Sounds like your SHO needs some help.

You should probably get up to speed on the maintanence to then figure out where the problem areas are.

That's what I'm working on. But I've also got to get her to pass smog on a tight budget.

1. I would try cleaning the MAF sensor - you can use brake cleaner, or they sell specific MAF cleaning spray at auto parts stores.

Yep, I've got some in the garage, actually. I've cleaned it before (not the SHO's, a previous life).

2. I would check the plug wells for oil. If they are full of oil do not just take the plugs out. You will need to get the oil out before removing the plugs. When I first got my SHO i used a piece of paper towel on the end of a pick to get the very last bits out. Whatever you don't get out goes into the combustion chamber.

Serious question, what would be the consequence of that (assuming it's not so much as to hydrolock)?

3. New plugs and wires will probably do you good also. You will need to remove the intake in order to do that. This will gain you access to clean the EGR.

4. The EGR goes into the side of the intake and into the throttle body. The 'nostrils' in the throttle body usually get clogged along with the passages in the intake. The intake has allen plugs that you can remove and help you clean out the EGR tubes. I used Chemtool and picks to get mine clean. Also gives you a good opportunity to clean out the rest of the intake.

Plugs and wires are always a great idea I think when things are suspect. Packs too maybe. Just let me make sure of my terminlogy. Intake is the air cleaner box. Throttle body is what the intake tube attaches to and contains the butterfly valve. The intake manifold is the round curvy thing with all the tubes going down into the block. The valve cover is the rectangular piece on each side below the plugs. If I'm right, I think I've got a pretty good idea what I've got to do. Your description was great.

What kind of SHO do you have?

Year? MTX/ATX? Miles?

She's a 95 ATX with 151k. Emerald green. I only paid $850 so I feel like I did well. I got lucky and jumped on it.

 

[SHOdded]

Whether you go Seafoam or AutoRx or acetone, don't forget you need to do an oil AND filter change once the regimen is complete. Oil will get very dirty very fast.

 

[avatar28]

Whether you go Seafoam or AutoRx or acetone, don't forget you need to do an oil AND filter change once the regimen is complete. Oil will get very dirty very fast.

Seriously, do people change the oil and not change the filter? Speaking of changing the oil, is there any reason I shouldn't go with the Supertech pure synthetic at Walmart? It's pretty cheap, more like a blend or even a premium normal oil.

 

[SHOdded]

Frankly, I don't know WHAT oil you should use. I have always preferred the Castrol GTX 5W30 myself, part of the reasoning being that synthetics are too "slippery" and do not provide the lubrication that conventional oils do. The SHO with the highest recorded mileage on this forum uses the same oil I mentioned. You might benefit from "High Mileage" oil. But opinions and successes are varied.

 

[SHOtimer]

1. Your poor gas mileage is probably due to the fact that your torque converter is not locking up. It is normal for the ATX to not lock the torque converter until the transmission is up to temp. You loose a lot of gas mileage in the winter when it takes awhile to lock up. Kinda like trying a stick with the clutch only half way out.

2. The consequences of letting everything drain into the combustion chamber is that you get dirt/sand/debris in there - it will score the cylinder walls cause excessive blow by/poor compression/and wear the motor out prematurely.

3. Your SHO only has one coil pack. They are usually good for life, I wouldn't bother replacing it.

4. Yes, your terminology is correct, except the air cleaner box - is the air cleaner box, it is just the beginning of the intake tract.

5. What type of oil you use is a debated subject. Personally - with your SHO i would stick with regular 10w30 or 5w30. Without knowing the history of the car, rod bearing condition, ect, I would stick with conventional oil.

Post some pictures!

(Happy 4,000th post to me!)

Doug

 

[rubydist]

use regular oil until you get your maintenance issues resolved - you may be changing it pretty often in the next couple of months while you do that...

I have seen plug wells with enough oil to cause hydrolock, so they can get very bad. As mentioned, you don't want the dirt and debris in the cylinder, so dry them out first. I'm betting that is part of your performance and economy issue.

Easiest test of pump v. regulator works like this: after the car has sat overnight or longer, it is usually hard to start, right? So in that situation, you turn the key to "on" for about 4 seconds, then "off" again. Repeat that about 4 times. If the car starts right up after that, chances are very good that the fuel pump check valve leaks. If the car doesn't start right up after that, then check the fuel pressure at the rails. If its still low after the on/off trick, either the regulator is bad and doesn't let it build pressure, or the fuel pump is so bad that it won't build pressure. btw, I have seen way more bad fuel pumps than bad fuel pressure regulators, so keep in mind it is more likely to be the pump.

 

[avatar28]

Easiest test of pump v. regulator works like this: after the car has sat overnight or longer, it is usually hard to start, right? So in that situation, you turn the key to "on" for about 4 seconds, then "off" again. Repeat that about 4 times. If the car starts right up after that, chances are very good that the fuel pump check valve leaks. If the car doesn't start right up after that, then check the fuel pressure at the rails. If its still low after the on/off trick, either the regulator is bad and doesn't let it build pressure, or the fuel pump is so bad that it won't build pressure. btw, I have seen way more bad fuel pumps than bad fuel pressure regulators, so keep in mind it is more likely to be the pump.

I've done the on off trick. If I just go straight to starting it can take 10 seconds of cranking sometimes. If I do the off on trick a few times after the third time the sound changes slightly (lower pitch?) and it usually only takes 2-3 seconds of cranking to start it. Does the check valve require replacing the fuel pump?

 

[EL SHO]

...If I do the off on trick a few times after the third time the sound changes slightly (lower pitch?) and it usually only takes 2-3 seconds of cranking to start it....

my bet is that is the fuel pump!

My SHO and Mustang started doing the same thing you describe there. The pitch noise in the SHO sounded "weak" until I did the on/off 3 times it would sound "right" and the car would start at the first crank. Same thing with the Mustang until one day the pump died completely.

 

[avatar28]

my bet is that is the fuel pump!

My SHO and Mustang started doing the same thing you describe there. The pitch noise in the SHO sounded "weak" until I did the on/off 3 times it would sound "right" and the car would start at the first crank. Same thing with the Mustang until one day the pump died completely.

I was afraid you were going to say that....

 

[rubydist]

I've done the on off trick. If I just go straight to starting it can take 10 seconds of cranking sometimes. If I do the off on trick a few times after the third time the sound changes slightly (lower pitch?) and it usually only takes 2-3 seconds of cranking to start it. Does the check valve require replacing the fuel pump?

The check valve is integral to the pump. Its not that hard to change if you do the 'cut the floor' method, which is described in at least one thread here on the forum.

 

[avatar28]

Currently reading through shotimes. Lots of really great info there (like exactly how to remove that darned manifold). So assuming I'm going to be taking the intake manifold off, what would you guys recommend I do while it is off? Keeping in mind an initial budget of, say, $50 for the moment and only one day of halfway warm, decent weather. I could probably do a little more if I had to but dropping a couple hundred isn't happening at this juncture unless it is something urgent.

 

[rubydist]

well, the fuel pump is around $150, iirc.

valve cover gaskets are also over your budget, not to mention plugs and wires.

the parts required to do the full 60k work (which is strongly recommended) is around $300 or so.

 

[avatar28]

well, the fuel pump is around $150, iirc.

valve cover gaskets are also over your budget, not to mention plugs and wires.

the parts required to do the full 60k work (which is strongly recommended) is around $300 or so.

I knew I wasn't doing all that today. Might could manage plugs but I would prefer to do all that at once.

 

[avatar28]

okay so I got the tstat changed. Temps are doing as they're supposed to. I decided not to take the intake manifold off today. I'm going to hold off on that until I can get plugs, gaskets, etc. I pulled one of the plug seals and there was oil all in the well so I guess that answers that question. I injected some Seafoam by disconnecting the MAF and pulling the air tube off the throttle body and pouring a trickle past it while revving the engine. Got a nice, big cloud after. I guess an oil change will be the next step and plugs and wires and their seals after that.

Is it still the case that only a few certain types of plugs and wires fit and seal correctly?

 

[Off Road SHO]

Your plugs and wires might be fine for now, just get the oil out of there. I use compressed air with a rag wrapped around the nozzle to catch the blown up oil. As it gets near empty, I pour a little paint thinner in each well the get it all out. The paper towel strips work also if you have more time. The cheaper the brand, the faster it soaks up oil.

Tom