Dead SHO - Various Codes ***Broken Timing Belt***

[Rockledge]

OK folks, this is the second time my SHO simply died on me, completly out of nowhere, and left me stranded with a no start condition. Now I suppose that means my initiation into the world of the SHO is proceeding right on schedule finger , but I kinda like driving it so I hope someone can help me out here.

The background: We (my SHO and I) were out on our usual Saturday morning sprint ...zipping along at a very good clip on a nice flat and straight expressway, had it up to about 5500 RPMs in 4th gear and was getting ready to shift into 5th when all of a sudden NOTHING. Engine is dead. Shifted into nuetral, tried starting it, but nothing. Rolled almost a mile (yep) to the next exit ramp and was able to get it off the expressway. Tried starting it many times, but nothing. Left it alone for 30 minutes and tried. Nothing. Tried again a few hours later. Nothing. Just cranks.

Codes pulled are as follows: 116, 114, 543, 524 repeat, and then 157, 214, 524, 542, 543 repeat.

Now, I recently had a fuel pump problem and so I had already gotten the 542, 543 and 524 codes during that ordeal. I replace the fuel pump and the CCRM and thought that was the end of it for those codes, though.

The 214 - Error in Cylinder ID (CID) circuit or signal code - I understand is usually the CID sensor which would make sense regarding the instantaneous shut down of the engine.

The 114 - IAT sensor out of range code and the 116 - Engine Coolant (ECT) sensor out of range code I think might be attributable to the fact that I didn't get a chance to pull the codes until the engine was cool and it is about 28 degrees outside right now.

But what about the 157 - Mass Air Flow signal is/was low or grounded code? That seemingly has nothing to do with any of the other codes nor can it easily be explained away by ambient temperature or anything else. So I'm thinking maybe there is another common cause to all of these sensor-related codes I am getting.

So what do you all think? Where should I initally focus my energy? I was thinking about replacing the CID sensor but I don't want to throw $$ at a part that may be OK but simply not operating properly because of some other problem.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

<small>[ December 25, 2003, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Rockledge ]</small>

 

[projectSHO89]

Your symptoms are of either a complete loss of spark or complete loss of fuel flow.

Need to test each and see which is missing.

Fuel pressure guage is the fancy method for checking pressure. Should have around 40 psi after cycling key several times. The no-so-fancy way involves pushing the core of the Shraeder valve and hoping you don't get sprayed with fuel.

For spark, the fancy way is to connect an inductive pickup timing light to a plug wire and see if it fires while cranking. The not-so-fancy way involves unplugging a spark plug wire, sticking a long screwdriver blade into the plug wire, then holding the blade near the engine block while the engine is cranked. It is suggested that you do NOT do this after testing the fuel pressure and getting a gasoline shower.

Once you know which system is dead, troubleshooting can continue.

Personally, I would unplug both the MAF and the CID ans crank it several times to see if there is any hint of firing.

Steve

 

[Dr. Tweak]

My first thought is the CID (or cam position sensor) is bad, doesn't happen often but it can. Fortunetely it is not an expensive part (somwhere around $35 sound right?)

Other than that, the symptoms also point to a CPS (crankshft position sensor) If you're doing your 60k then you will replace this anyway. So either do your lower 60k early or... park your SHO and do it when you have more money. doh

 

[Rockledge]

Here is the latest info, which is very interesting, but very disturbing to me, as well.

I had noticed when I was cranking the engine that it had more of a whiney type of sound to it and seemed to crank a little faster than usual. So I thought about it, and remembered reading a thread about how you can check for a broken timing belt by pulling off the oil fill cap and looking down inside to see if anything moves. So I did that, and guess what, I did not see anything moving! eek!

To confirm, I pulled off the upper timing belt cover (after removing the various components that are in the way) but kept all the belts on and tried cranking it again. Sure enough, NO MOVEMENT OF THE TIMING BELT OR CAMSHAFT SPROCKETS!

Yet, when I check the tension on the timing belt it seems to be tight ...that would not be normal for a broken belt, would it? shrug

Or could it possibly be a busted crankshaft timing belt sprocket? Are they known to go on the SHO? I don't hear any grinding or anything that would indicate broken pieces of metal near a spinning shaft.

I am assuming that most if not all of the assorted sensor codes I am getting can be traced to this mechanical problem, would you agree?

I had to button things up because I was working outdoors and had a long day with the SHO as it is. I hope to get it inside the garage by tomorrow and maybe dig a little deeper.

Sorry for all the questions on this, but I'm more accustomed to working on the OHV pushrods, and this DOHC stuff is somewhat unchartered territory for me. Thanks again in advance for any help.

 

[Dr. Tweak]

Bro, that sucks. Did you notice a rust colored powder on your timing belt? It's possible that you have crank cancer and the key is broken... or maybe your belt wasn't tight enough and the teeth are gone where it goes around the crank sprockets? Just random thoughts... shrug

<small>[ December 20, 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: JDLangevin ]</small>

 

[Rockledge]

JDLangevin:
Bro, that sucks. Did you notice a rust colored powder on your timing belt? It's possible that you have crank cancer and the key is broken...

Uh oh.

I did notice a rust covered powder inside the cam sprockets...

Man, I'm thinking the worst now ...doesn't crank cancer (and the resulting damage) usually take the whole crank with it? frown

 

[Dr. Tweak]

Well don't write it off just yet, but I think you're right about it taking the whole crank with it.

Just tear it down and take a good look before you freak out though, could be repairable...

Of course if I were in your place I'd be freaking out... headbang

On that note, how much do you want for your slicers? laugh_ti Just kidding dude just kidding, okay I know that was cold... slap Bad Cop! No Donut.

 

[Mr Anonymous]

Definitely sounds like a terminal case of the dreaded crank cancer... If the sprocket is turning freely on the crank, I would assume that the sprocket, woodruff key, and more importantly the crank itself are all probably damaged beyond repair.

If you want to get another motor swapped into it, or just want to unload it for parts, email me or Kirk. Figure about $1000 parts & labor for a straight 3.0L swap, or about $1400 if you want a 3.2L.

 

[Rockledge]

JDLangevin:
Well don't write it off just yet, but I think you're right about it taking the whole crank with it.

Just tear it down and take a good look before you freak out though, could be repairable...

Of course if I were in your place I'd be freaking out... headbang

On that note, how much do you want for your slicers? laugh_ti Just kidding dude just kidding, okay I know that was cold... slap Bad Cop! No Donut.

Holy cow now I'm really paranoid ...people already lining up for parts! eek!

I just read the writeup on crank cancer that SHOTimes has. It seems to offer some kind of hope but I don't know, I still have to think the crank would be damaged if that is what has happened in my case. The funny thing is, I was not experiencing any kind of performance problems or lousy idles or funny no-starts or anything. No kocking or anything. Just a stupid fuel pump problem that I thought was fixed. My SHO was really running great. So in that sense I had no warning. The shame of it will fully be that I was going to do a front 60K in February and might have been able to see something to prevent it at that time.

Anyway, I will certainly know more when I look at it more closely, like you say.

Thanks for the moral support and stop thinking about my slicers (for now). finger

P.S. Any further comments out there are welcome...

 

[Rockledge]

SHOooo:
Definitely sounds like a terminal case of the dreaded crank cancer... If the sprocket is turning freely on the crank, I would assume that the sprocket, woodruff key, and more importantly the crank itself are all probably damaged beyond repair.

If you want to get another motor swapped into it, or just want to unload it for parts, email me or Kirk. Figure about $1000 parts & labor for a straight 3.0L swap, or about $1400 if you want a 3.2L.

I'll be keeping you guys in mind as I weigh all my options, thanks for weighing in (just wish you had a miracle cure to give me... )

 

[Dr. Tweak]

Thanks for the moral support and stop thinking about my slicers (for now).

doh rant headbang

(just wish you had a miracle cure to give me... [Frown]

Acually, $1400 for a 3.2 installed a heck of a deal. Think about... 3.2 ooooohhhh torque!!!

Let us know what happens, ok? burnout

 

[Rockledge]

JDLangevin:
]Acually, $1400 for a 3.2 installed a heck of a deal. Think about... 3.2 ooooohhhh torque!!!

Let us know what happens, ok? burnout

A 3.2L would only make me dig the SHO even more and pull me in deeper (only to be jilted again sometime in the future, who knows shrug ).

I will keep ya posted... wink

 

[projectSHO89]

If the motor was running fine prior to its cutting out, you probably just stripped the teeth off the belt without it breaking.

Pull the lower timing belt cover and check it. That will eliminate the guess work.

Steve

 

[Rockledge]

projectSHO89:
If the motor was running fine prior to its cutting out, you probably just stripped the teeth off the belt without it breaking.

Pull the lower timing belt cover and check it. That will eliminate the guess work.

Steve

Well, I finally got a chance this afternoon to dig a little deeper into the front of the engine. I followed the steps for the timing belt change but unfortunately I ran into another problem. I cannot get the crankshaft bolt off. Whoever had it off before me had done a number on it so when I try to rest a breaker bar on the subframe and crank the ignition the bolt just spins underneath the six point 19mm impact socket that I am using.

While further disassembling things I also noticed that the cam sprockets were not lined up properly at all. Even if I could have spun the belt to the proper place the marks were off. So I figured since I was stuck anyway not being able to get the crank bolt off I decided it was time to cut the timing belt and pull it through and out. So I did that, and look what I discovered:

Steve was right on, the timing belt teeth are stripped clean! eek! A full eight inches worth. No wonder the belt wasn't moving!

Now, I realize since I have not yet seen the crank sprocket that there are no guarantees yet, but I would have to say that by the look of the belt that the news is thus far very positive.

So now the critical question of the moment: how the **** do I get that stripped crank bolt off? madflame

P.S. Thanks for the help ....much appreciated.

 

[Dr. Tweak]

Steve was right on, the timing belt teeth are stripped clean! A full eight inches worth. No wonder the belt wasn't moving!

HEY! WHAT ABOUT ME MAN?!?!?

maybe your belt wasn't tight enough and the teeth are gone where it goes around the crank sprockets?

^^ Give it up, comon! rofl


Seriously bro, that is really good news. Now how to get that crank bolt off... whoa.... If it is stripped bad then I thing you're gonna have to just drill it out and replace it. doh

 

[Rockledge]

JDLangevin:

HEY! WHAT ABOUT ME MAN?!?!?

maybe your belt wasn't tight enough and the teeth are gone where it goes around the crank sprockets?

^^ Give it up, comon! rofl

Seriously bro, that is really good news. Now how to get that crank bolt off... whoa.... If it is stripped bad then I thing you're gonna have to just drill it out and replace it. doh

Sorry JD, you were right too!

I forgot to mention, now that I can see the water pump more clearly I notice that it is a new unit. Gasket looks fresh, even the bolts heads are still nice and shiny. Which leads me to believe that someone (PO?) actually had been in there to replace the pump fairly recently and didn't replace the timing belt at the same time (fool! headbang ).

So, after I get the crank bolt off, and assuming that the rest of the timing sprocket and the crank itself check out OK, when I proceed with the frontal 60K, I am wondering whether a new WP would even be necessary? Any way I can tell for sure if a pump is good/new or not?

As for that brown powdery substance I noticed on the cam sprockets, I'm admittedly still a little concerned about it, but I was looking through somebody elses' pictures of their SHO engine and I saw a picture showing the sprockets which looked very similar to my situation, so I think it's worth posting:

Doesn't look too bad, then, does it?

But back to that pesky crank bolt. Aside from drilling, are there any other options? I have one of the those slide hammer impact socket kits but I'm not sure I can get a good enough swing of the hammer in there. Anything else you can think of for me to try?

Thanks for the feeback!

<small>[ December 23, 2003, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: Rockledge ]</small>

 

[Dr. Tweak]

Spin the WP pulley by hand and see how it feels, if there is no grinding then you might decide not to change it. However, for the $30 or so that it will cost for a rebuilt one, you should do it while you're in there, just keep the old one as a spare in case something goes wrong down the road. That's what I did, mine was in really good shape so I'm keeping it.

Maybe the belt wasn't properly tensioned after whoever changed the pump, and that's what caused the teeth to strip? Is the tensioner bold tight?

That pic you posted is acually you're car, right? Because that looks fine. The rust-colored powder I'm talking about is a lot different, you can't mistake it. Maybe someone has a pic?

As far as the crank bolt, just make sure you have the right size socket (6 pt 19mm), and make sure it's a good socket, a cheezy one might be too loose but a real good one like a Snap-on (borrow one?) might still be able to get it off.

How about a pic of the bolt? Other than that I don't know, someone else will have to step in here. I do everything I can to make sure I never strip bolts, but I know it happens sometimes... headbang

 

[Rockledge]

Got some more news and I think it's pretty good! thumb

I managed to get the stripped crank bolt off using a Craftsman Bolt-Out (size #13) and the ignition cranking trick. First time, one shot. I am 100% sold on those things!

So once the crank bolt came off I pulled the crank pulley and started looking for signs of rust, corrosion, etc. I did notice that one of the lips on the pully was chipped, but I did not find any hint of problems around the area where it mounts on the shaft:

So then I'm thinking, so far so good regarding potential crank cancer. However, I am going to need a new pulley on account of the chipped lip.

When I got the lower timing belt cover off, out came a bunch of the ribs (and pieces thereof) of the timing belt which had stripped out. Cleaned that mess up good before proceeding.

I then eagerly pulled the timing belt sprocket (which seemed to be in good shape while still on the crank) to see if there was anything underneath or behind it that would indicate the dreaded CC. I was very pleased to see nothing of the sort. Both the sprocket and the crankshasft look very good! Here are some pics after I cleaned up a little bit:

So what do you guys think, looks pretty good, doesn't it? I don't see any signs of crank cancer or any other problems, do you? Am I justified in feeling really good about this right now?

 

[Dr. Tweak]

Wow you're crank and everything is in really good shape... better shape than mind in fact. Looks like your crank seal is in good shape too.

Did you're timing belt pulley slide off by hand? I had to use a puller on mine

How do you plan on pulling you're pulley back on? I heated mine up by setting it on my propane heater and then it nearly slid on my hand... i just had no "encourage" it a litte with a block of wood and a hammer, just light taps, and then I pulled it in the rest of the way with the crank bolt. ****

 

[Rockledge]

JDLangevin:
Wow you're crank and everything is in really good shape... better shape than mind in fact. Looks like your crank seal is in good shape too.

Did you're timing belt pulley slide off by hand? I had to use a puller on mine

How do you plan on pulling you're pulley back on? I heated mine up by setting it on my propane heater and then it nearly slid on my hand... i just had no "encourage" it a litte with a block of wood and a hammer, just light taps, and then I pulled it in the rest of the way with the crank bolt. ****

I am very happy with the way the crank looks ...as you might expect, I was sweating it out there for a while! But I'd have to say today (actually it's yesterday now) was a good SHO day. thumb

The seal does look pretty good, as well, but probably should be replaced nonetheless, no?

When I started to bolt the puller to the timing belt sprocket I noticed that it moved a little so I was able to grab it and pull it off (came slowly) by hand.

To be honest, I hadn't really thought about how I was going to get the pulley back on ....I didn't realize it might be an issue ...I will keep your tip in mind.

Now I just have to gather the parts I need...

<small>[ December 24, 2003, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Rockledge ]</small>