Damaged clutch release bearing OR miss-adjusted clutch cable?

[timwarlick]

1995 SHO with 5 speed and 108K miles bought 3 months ago (I now own 3 SHO's).

Problem was I had to push the clutch pedal 101% down to prevent grinding gears for the 1st and the 2nd gear shifts. Thought that the cable may be stretched. Replaced cable and problem is worse, can not push pedal far enough to get into 1st gear with the engine running.

Checked the automatic cable adjustment several times. Including loosening up the cable and then pressing the clutch pedal 3+ times to readjust it. Can not hear the click but appears to tighten up the cable.
Checked to be sure the plastic bushing/spacer is installed where the cable attaches to the frame near the transmission. It is OK.
Can shift into gears easily with the engine off.

Also, noticed that when the engine is running and in neutral, no noise. But when I press the clutch in, I hear a continuous noise until I let the clutch out (in neutral). My shop manual says this problem could be a damaged clutch release hub and bearing.

Bottom line, is my problem the clutch cable needs to be tightened more (somehow) to completely disengage the clutch OR is my clutch release bearing need replaced? Any other troubleshooting I can do before pulling the transmission out?

 

[SHO Continental]

Your pressure plate fingers (and clutch) are worn, you might also be missing a few fingers on the pressure plate.

The PP probably looks like this:

 

[intimdatr]

I think Matt has it. Dead Pressure plate. My 92 would do much the similar thing as yours. Time for a clutch rebuild.

 

[timwarlick]

Update - Took me two weekends but I replaced the clutch assembly and had the flywheel resurfaced. Took longer because I had to clean and repaint a number of parts while I had the subframe out. Only broke 3 bolts (2 exhaust studs) during dis-assembly.

Just took the SHO for a test drive. No problem getting it in gears and it shifts good EXCEPT I can not get it into reverse unless I shut off the engine. It feels like the clutch is not in all the way as the you hear the grinding noise. I have moved the clutch pedal in and out a number of times to adjust the cable.

Any suggestions???

 

[intimdatr]

Clutch cable stretched?

 

[timwarlick]

Installed NEW clutch cable.

 

[sperold]

If you can get into the forward gears without issue, then your new clutch is doing its job. Maybe not perfectly, but well enough to verify it was a good idea to change the assembly. You can find little helpful suggestions on this forum on how to maximize your clutch experience. There is a grommet that can be dislodged that reduces the affect of your clutch action.
Otherwise, here is an explanation of your grinding in reverse situation:
http://wikisho.com/wiki/Reverse_grinding

 

[timwarlick]

Thanks for the reply. I own 3 SHO's with 5 speed transmissions. I tried the shifting to 1st or 5th then reverse, still grinds so much that I can not get it into gear without shutting the engine off first. Then no problem. Today, I plan to check the clutch cable adjustment mechanism AGAIN.

 

[intimdatr]

Did you change the throw out bearing with the clutch? Just double checking.

 

[sperold]

Take a hard look at your shifter, might mean 2 people, one on top and another underneath. Go through the sequence and see if anything looks wrong. Put a vise grip on the linkage and see if there is any travel left, backward, forward or circular on the rod when you are hunting around for reverse.
Check under the hood and see if there is any travel left on the wig-wag (where your cable attaches) on the shaft that goes into the transmission when you have the clutch pedal down in the carpet.

 

[timwarlick]

Throw-out bearing and sleeve were replaced with the clutch. Again, with the engine off, the engine shifts easily into reverse. I then start the engine and can back up, no problem right down the street. Forward gears no problems with the engine running or not. This doesn't feel like the shift linkage is binding anywhere.
I have not checked the transmission clutch arm travel with the pedal pushed in yet because I need another person to help (maybe tomorrow). Clutch works OK in forward speeds, think this is really the problem?

 

[sperold]

Here is a "how-to" that lays the groundwork on how the tranny operates. Reverse gear and fifth gear are on the same counter shaft, so look for something odd concerning 5th in your row through the gears, or getting it to go into 5th while you are standing still.
http://wikisho.com/wiki/What_should_I_do_with_the_clutch_at_a_stop?
My vote is for the shifter not working well in the reverse hunt.
Did you have this reverse issue with the old clutch?

 

[sperold]

Something you have not told us; was the old pressure plate damaged (like in the picture by SHO Continental) or was the release bearing missing a few balls? Were the rivets close to the mating surface on your old disc?

 

[timwarlick]

Attached are a few pictures of the old parts.

Took a drive this morning and all 5 forward gears work just fine. 4th to 5th shift feels a little different but no problems. Stopped car, pushed in clutch, wait 10 to 20 seconds and then try to engage reverse (even went into 1st and 5th first) and still get grinding which prevents engaugement. Moved shifter into different positions trying to get int into reverse, no impact. Only goes into reverse (easily) if the engine is turned off.

History:
Bought car 3 months ago in Louisville, KY and drove back to AZ - no problems. Did notice that I had to be sure the clutch was pushed 105% during the 1st to 2nd shift to prevent grinding. I think reverse was the same.
Installed new clutch cable. Then could not get transmission into any gear due to noise when you pushed in the clutch with the engine running. Could go into gear with engine off. Checked and rechecked the cable adjustment mech at the pedal. Appears good as the cable feels tight at pedal and at transmission.

 

[sperold]

There is some hint that there is a clutch quadrant issue, but you seem to have looked into that, and you can compare it to your other cars to see if something is amiss.
If there is something wonky about both 5th and reverse, then that suggests it could be an issue with the countershaft or the shifter fork on that countershaft that runs the gear movement.
If it is just reverse, then you have to consider that it is just the reverse gear itself, which is your least enjoyable fix. The end of the gear could be damaged due to someone looking to shift into 6th gear when there isn't one.
Still could be the shifter mechanism is not rotating / sliding enough to complete the gear engagement, but that is a vice grip under the car routine.
Since we are grasping at straws, try a refill with new automatic transmission fluid, as I have heard stories of miraculous changes just by doing that.
Thanks for the pictures, as that confirms your old clutch system was pooched.

 

[timwarlick]

I appreciate your comments!
I put all new transmission fluid in it after the clutch change.
You know, I put it it reverse, start the engine up and then the engage the clutch normally and the car backs up 50 yards easily.
Decided to drive it to work tomorrow (18 miles each way) and see how it does. I will just put it in reverse before starting the engine to back out of the parking space.
Another week of thinking about this problem may result in my sub conscience coming up with the cause.
Let me know if you think of anything else!

 

[thegreatbriguy]

i'm sure you already tried double clutch before reverse along with the putting in forward gear?

 

[itwonder]

I hope your new pressure plate is fully seated onto the flywheel. There have been cases where the dowel pins stick out too far after flywheel resurfacing, and they bottom out in the pressure plate before it can fully onto the flywheel. Causes all manner of problems.

 

[sperold]

This is turning out to be a difficult one.
If you did not notice this on your trip home after you bought it, it seems to be something that has happened on your watch.
The worst issues appeared after the cable change. That could be a cable actuation issue; or it could coincidentally be when your pressure plate fingers broke off the last 2 or 3 fingers, making it only half effective at best.
It is a good sign that it does not jump out of reverse, once you are in it.
Where is the bite point in the clutch pedal travel where your car starts to move in first?
You should not hear a grinding noise with the clutch in with the new parts that you have, so something is up there.
Some people have reported putting the clutch disc in backward gives you issues, others say it can't be done. The new disc is marked as to which side goes where.
Search the forum for posts on tranny fluid. Many people claim a remarkable difference in changing brands of fluid. If you have the Ford stuff, try another brand, and the search will help you decide which one. Long shot, but who know.

 

[timwarlick]

I have been driving to work this week without any problems, although I put the transmission in reverse before I start the engine to back out of the parking space. Note that I put the clutch plate in correctly ans one side was marked engine side. Also, the resurfacing fo the flywheel took very little metal off so the pressure plate fit correctly.

Concerning double clutching, found this.

Many transmissions until recently did not have a synchronizer on the first gear. It is therefore necessary to double-clutch when downshifting into the first gear, though such instances are rare. Some transmissions today still do not have a synchronizer for the reverse gear, requiring that you come to a complete halt before shifting into reverse (see the "Grinding gears" section above for further implications of this). Double-clutching is of course impossible, as you cannot reverse the direction of the engine rotation. You must simply wait for the car to come to a halt and engine revs to drop to idling.

My problem is that you can wait 5 minutes with the clutch pushed in and then when you try to put the gear lever in reverse, the teeth grind. Yuck!