Car lunging when cold.

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

nlspears

New Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
Location
Harper Woods, Michigan
My SHO is acting crazy. When I first start it up when it has been sitting for awhile it start lunging when I put it in Reverse or Drive. It doesn't do this when in 1, 2, N, or P. It feels like the car want to take off, but when I put my foot on the brake the car starts lunging. When I look at the tach, the needle is hopping up and down between 600-1000 rpms. I drive the car for about 10 minutes and the symptoms go away. The car drives normally. I was told it could be the MAF, so cleaned it. Still same symptoms, and why does it only do this in Drive or Reverse. Anyone else ever have this problem. :frown:
 

mustangmann

"SHOTYME"
Joined
Nov 9, 2004
Messages
53
Reaction score
0
Location
Wisconsin
Yes, I have had this problem too, except mine does it at start up, seems like mostly in winter though, when I am in Park. I have not really noticed it in gear at all. I have 156,000 miles on mine and I am pretty sure the tranny fluid has only been changed once at like 30,000. I don't know what it is either. Anyone else have any input for us??
 

kidrock52

I pleed the fif!
Joined
Jul 1, 2004
Messages
73
Reaction score
0
Location
Buckley, MI
Mine does the same thing. Only after it has been sitting for a while and only that first shift after sitting. I had my tranny rebuilt last month and it still does it. I guess the engine just wants to go right from the start before the car has warmed up.
 

nlspears

New Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
Location
Harper Woods, Michigan
Here is a post I found on V8SHO.com. Sound similar to my problem:

It is nice to see a discussion of this annoyance that has plagued my driving experience since buying my SHO in Nov 2000.

The symptoms are:

In D you notice that the car is 'sailing' or driving itself when you are cruising along - you can release the gas pedal and the car drives itself - the fuel is not cut-off (unlike most vehicles). If the cruise system is on, it cannot hold the vehicle speed to the setpoint very well (especially if you go to a downhill stretch of road), the speed increases.

When you come to a stop in D with foot on the brake pedal, you notice that the idle speed is around 900-1200rpm. You can feel the engine 'fighting' against the brakes and transmission load.

While stopped, if you then select N or P (i.e. take of the loading of the transmission from the engine), the engine speed will hesitate a bit and then rise in a controlled manner (sometimes at a very slow rate) towards about 3000rpm. It does not hit the rev-limiter, which is about 3500-4000rpm in N or P.

Naturally if you put it into D from this 3000rpm condition the transmission takes a huge shock and your wheels spin - not good for durability or safety!.

When the conditions exist, you will notice that the idle control (engine speed) in N or P with vehicle stopped is extremely sensitive to any additional loads applied to the engine. This is especially so when the air conditioning compressor clutches in and out - it causes a big disturbance to engine speed.

Diagnosis

I work in the motor industry defining software and performing calibrations on many engine/transmission/traction control system functions, so have a good background in troubleshooting problems and finding route causes - including powertain electrical troubleshooting for Jaguar, BMW and Rover on their development vehicles from first prototypes to production build.

However, in this case I didn't have the necessary calibration tools or system specifications (for the idle control function and its diagnosis for example) to communicate with the engine management system directly, so I had to rely on experience and other less 'intelligent tools' to diagnose the problem.

The occurrences are intermittent - at first i thought it may have been temperature related (bad idle calibration at low temperatures), but it has since exhibited it from close to 0 degrees F coolant/air temperature to fully warm. Vacuum leaks were also suspected, but cruise etc. seems to function fine, and brake servo assist is OK when the problem exhibited.

The other thing it could be is a sticking PCV valve, which could stick letting unmetered air into the intake manifold - but I think it unlikely due to the ramping effect i have seen.

One big item that puzzled me was the way that the idle speed ramps up in a controlled manner to 3000rpm - normally if you have a direct fault (or intermittent fault), the engine speed should jump erratically or directly to a new value - as a direct result of a leaking vacuum hose or broken electrical connection to a sensor/actuator. This is not the case - it is definitely being controlled to the 3000rpm by software.

I put a generic OBDII scantool onto the vehicle (the type independent dealers can by and which all vehicle manufacturers have to support) - what really surprised me was that there were no codes stored at all (not even temporary or history) - this is a big mistake for Ford as it means they are not compliant with the OBD regulations that state that a code should be raised if a fault exists which would cause emissions to raise more than a certain level - 3000rpm would certainly meet these criteria!

The next thing i wanted to test was whether the Idle Control Actuator was being commanded to an unusually high value - or if it was 'stuck' at a high value when the problem occurred. Two problems existed here - there is no feedback signal from the Idle Actuator, just the command signal - so using the OBDII scantool I could only read the commanded %. Then, typically the problem wouldn't reproduce itself when i had the tool!!

TSB's and Ford Cutomer 'Service'

At this point I searched the web, and got some TSB info from the NHSTA and carfax.com. Three TSB's seemed relevant:

1) One TSB was about a clip sticking in the throttle pedal under the drivers foot well - not the case with my vehicle (and not the same symptom)

2) One TSB was about vehicle 'sailing' in drive - the explanation was that the calibration had extra fuel added when in D and vehicle moving, with the driver not having his foot on the gas pedal - this was to avoid a drivability issue when the driver 'tipped-in' again on the gas-pedal (i.e. the fuel avoids a 'shunt' on pedal re-application).

This definitely describes the feeling i get in D - before I stop and get the high idle speed in N/P.

3) One TSB referencing Unusually high idle.

I could not find 2) on v8sho.com, but 3) is listed as TSB 00-3-5 in v8sho.com, and lists the service fix available, part numbers and OASIS numbers - great!!

I called the Ford Customer Service line this morning, seeing if I could get them to pay for this on a 'safety' issue point of view my car is over 36kmiles - stating the unintended acceleration (a term the motor industry fears like nothing else) in D, and the squealing of tires and surging forwards of the vehicle when going from 3000rpm in N to D. I failed to mention possible OBD code non-compliance. I also gave them the TSB number 00-3-5.

Ford put me on hold, called a dealer i had visited to discuss the problem with, and 'looked' into their database. I got the response that the TSB 00-3-5 didn't exist and no TSB's exist for my vehicle. I said that i could quote her OASIS numbers and the service part number for the fix - she would not accept that the TSB existed! funnily enough she almost quoted word-for-word part of the text on the TSB under 'Service Procedure' - i said 'good quote' I can read that too!

Following that I re-iterated the safety issue and mentioned that i would be calling the NHSTA who may well be interested - but to no avail, they would not budge - just the corporate reply ' Is there anything else we can help you with today ...?'

Action Taken

following TSB 00-3-5, I have since called a local dealer who has a XF1Z-15K607-AB in stock for $17 - I notice that it has been up-issued since AA listed in the TSB - I'll repost when I have fitted it and see if it improves things.

I'll also fit a new PCV - which Ford does for free at 60K Miles anyway.

Questions

Has anyone else had denial of TSBs from Ford or their dealer, has anyone had the same symptoms as my SHO ? Please let us all know.



Fox Casper
 

spragers

New Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
251
Reaction score
6
Location
central WI
Went ahead and performed the TPS fix

AFAIK, the TPS problem only exhibits itself when you stop, then shift from drive (or reverse) into park. Shut the car off, restart, and it's fine. It doesn't effect the car while driving. FYI, the TPS fix does work :)
 

nlspears

New Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
Location
Harper Woods, Michigan
Yep, I cleaned the IAC and it still jerks in drive or revese. I do have a 1744 code. The torque clutch stuck in off position. I am hesitent to think this problem is the TC, because it goes away after I drive for awhile.
 

Sagabu

~V-8 SHO Resurector~
Joined
Oct 18, 2004
Messages
173
Reaction score
0
Location
Maroon , Ohio
Doug (FPS) is the tranny pro.
I would first check the connections primarily the main one on top of the trans. Check for crud/corrosion .
How does the fluid look/smell ? If dark and stinky, flush the system. Never hurts.
 

SHOZ123

SHO Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2000
Messages
12,152
Reaction score
673
Location
Illinois
Could be low EPC pressure. This can be checked with a gage screwed into the top of the tranny.

P1744
Excessive slip detected during full TCC engagement. Torque converter disengaged. EPC pressure at minimum
 

nlspears

New Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2004
Messages
11
Reaction score
0
Location
Harper Woods, Michigan
Update

Okay, this morning I put the car in reverse and put on the park brake, so I could look under the hood while the car/engine lunged. Here is what I observed and heard. The engine would start jerking when I heard a click. I looked all around to find where the noise was coming from. It was coming from the passenger side. I looked over there and saw that the air conditioner clutch was engaging and disengaging. This was causing my engine to lunge. Anyone ever seen this? What would cause the A/C clutch to engage and then disengage if it is not on?
 

SHOZ123

SHO Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2000
Messages
12,152
Reaction score
673
Location
Illinois
Does the A/C cycle when the climate control is off? How are your motor mounts?
 

Twisted99

New Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2002
Messages
88
Reaction score
0
Location
South East
What is "The TPS" fix mentioned in the above post? What is the TPS voltage @ idle ?

I have noticed my 98 idle go extremly high..say 3000 rpm on a couple occassions. Shut it down and it returns to a normal idle. This is a bit disconcerting. I have felt like the car was "sailing" on a couple of occasions as well..I wrote it off as being the vehicles weight. Maybe it is somethng else?
Just returned from a 1400 mile jaunt to NC. Was very pleased with the SHO's performance. I will have to add the stiffer sway bars front and rear as well as lowering it. Fuel mileage was an average of 24 up and back. I live at about sea level. Averaged around 80mph up and back. Not bad. I have FPS's 93 ocatane tuned SCT X-CalII. For now I have the hotair intake. Waiting on a cone for the above fender install. Yes the ehaust note from the Magnaflows does leave folks with a WTF was that look. They sound sweet. I would love to experience a blown V-8 SHo and soon hope to have a mild nitrous setup.

I poured in 40 below's tranny fluid additive which is supposed to cool it down somewhat. Not sure how well this works but have read good things about their products. Redline in the coolant. Changed the filter and tranny fluid. Dropped the oil about 1500 miles after the cam weld and yes the magnet had some nice round slag beads on it.

Does the AC clutch click seem really loud when it engaes or is it just me? Never noticed it inside the cab but outside it seems loud.
 

SHOZ123

SHO Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2000
Messages
12,152
Reaction score
673
Location
Illinois
I checked mine today. At idle the TPS was putting out .930V. this is too low. It should be .997V and NOT over 1.0V with the throttle closed, key on and engine off.

You can loosen the screws and turn it to the clockwise to increase your closed throttle voltage. On my original TPS the voltage would not go over 9.84 so I swapped in another. I could get the voltage well over 1V with this one. Getting it to stay at .997 is a bit of a chore but can be done. I think mine could use a bit stiffer return spring to make the closed throttle voltage consistent.

TPS%20after%20adjust.jpg


Stick a paper clip into the back of the plug into the middle wire. then attach a voltmeter with the negative lead grounded. This is how to measure the voltage. In then picture the voltage is .995 and I was happy with that.
 

Twisted99

New Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2002
Messages
88
Reaction score
0
Location
South East
I thought it would be about 1 volt. The other Fords I have owed and the Merkurs I used to have where the same @ idle. Just was not certain on this SHO. thanks

Still would like to know what the "TPS fix" is mentioned above to solve the random surge to 3000 rpm @ idle. I have yet to clean the Idle Air Body. I wonder if the Idle Air Motor could be causing the surge in rpm's @ idle. The AC clutch engaging signal bumps the idle if I recall.

I have drilled out the holes on the TPS on a couple of vehicles to adjust the voltage. Some aftermarket TPS's come slotted for this purpose.

As far as "Lunging" when cold my 01 Lightning does this. The first time I thought I might have a run away on my hands. A common problem noted in the Lightning community. Must be the high idle coupled with the stiff fluid.
 

SHOZ123

SHO Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2000
Messages
12,152
Reaction score
673
Location
Illinois
As I understand it you want to be as close to 1V as possible but always just under it with the throttle closed.
 

stangeater

Farm Boy
Joined
Nov 26, 2004
Messages
853
Reaction score
72
Location
Illinois
Good news I can solve your problem.................get an mtx! LOL!! Sorry, I just had to throw that out there.
 

SHOZ123

SHO Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2000
Messages
12,152
Reaction score
673
Location
Illinois
nlspears said:
Yes, this is exactly what is happening. The AC clutch engages and disengages despite it not being turned on.

This would have to be a shorted wire. What year car is this?
 

Forum statistics

Threads
107,077
Messages
1,181,195
Members
16,142
Latest member
Kaevorlly

Members online

Back
Top