brakes.starting from scratch

[coldsho]

my brakes on my sho are pretty well gone. they barely work, im assuming de to the car not being driven mch, maybe 200 miles in the last year or so. anyway i was planning on upgrading anyway.

i have a 93 atx. thats being totally stripped and gutted and being dedicated to road race use only.

fronts.

i know if i plan on doing anything i need new front 94-95knuckles. wheres the best place to find a set?

i plan on using my stock rims for wet racing so i need the brakes to fit under the stock slicers

i was thinking of the mdwest sho stage 3. 12inch with double pistons

rears.

if i plan on doing anything crazy i also need new 90-92knuckles, where do i get these as well

would it be worth it to do the 11.6 rears with stock calipers, id prefer to get new calipers i know my left rear had ceased on me once b4.

and just to tp everything of id get new ss lines as well as bias plugs. as well as hawk pads all the way around

ive read mch about all the brake combos out there. would this be the best for me. ive read that using that large in the back will throw off my bias as welll as the plugs. im clsing in on my 2300lb goal everyday. and i know my tails gonna start to get real happy. i plan on racing with others and would prefer to walk away from as many races as possible, this will be my first season of road racing.

also what should i do about my abs. ive driven cars with and without, i prefer without. can i jst rip it out are is there more i need to do?

sorry for all the questions.

 

[luigisho]

If you go with larger rear brakes I would not disable the ABS unless you get something to adjust the front to rear brake bias. If you just get better brakes on the rear you run the risk of locking it up and having the back end kick out on you.
If you want better brakes for the front with stock slicers check with Todd at TCE. I know he was selling some of his brake kits (in the classified section here) at a reduced price to clear inventory. He has Wilwood setups that fit under slicers IIRC.
Also check out the shotimes.com faq for a write up on changing knuckles. There are some from Lincoln Conti's that work too and that should make finding a salvage set a little easier.

 

[jedhead]

On a track car TCE's 4 piston Wilwood are the best way to go. With the two piece rotors the gain in rotational mass is minimized and you will gain some better handling with less unsprung wieght from the aluminum calipers. You can also step up to the 6 piston set up to. Another advantage to the wilwoods is that the pads can be quickly changed with out removing the calipers. You can break in several pad ahead of time so you can swap pads quickly if needed. Because the Wilwoods are racing items, you have a wide selection of pads to choose from too. For the rear I would get the vented stock rotors from the GEN1 and install bias plugs, since you should get adjustable arms in the rear to adjust camber and toe easily. I recommend TCE arms if you can find them since Todd doesn't make them anymore. The BMR arms look pretty good from the pictures.

Bob

 

[NJSHO]

I too was thinking of the midwest 12" kit with some 2 piece 12" rotors that I am currently researching.

 

[ManySHOs]

You may want to reconsider sticking with the slicers. They aren't "big brake" friendly. The only serious brake kits that fit under the slicers are the 12.2 TCE SHOstoppers and the old Baer 12.5" kit (although some people have problems with that kit as well). Both have their drawbacks. The TCE kit requires the use of a fat rotor hat to run with the slicers which can lead to accelerated wear of the front wheel bearings. You also need to use a .81" "thick" rotor which is pretty wimpy IMO. I have this kit now and love it. However, I'm giving up on the slicers and will have at least 2 sets of 17's so I can run either 13 x 1.1 rotors or 12.2 x 1.1 with thinner hats year round. If you are gutting your car, you will probably be fine with the .81" rotor.

One of the biggest downsides to the Baer kit is that it used a cut down 13" corvette rotor. Unless Todd Cook makes up a custom 2 piece rotor/hat for you, it can get awfully difficult and expensive to find replacement rotors for that setup. BTW, both the TCE wilwood kit and the Baer kit use modified 90-92 front spindles.

Some people have fabricated setups that use 2 piston calipers with the 11.6" 96 rotor so that it will fit under the slicers. While this is cool and probably worth doing for a lot of people, that rotor weighs more than the spindle. It sure isn't light.

Are you sure that you want to use an atx for road race stuff? Besides all of my gripes with the atx, you'll be working your brakes a lot harder with the atx because of its extra weight up front and also because you can't really engine brake too well with an automatic.

For the rears, I would install the stock vented rear setup with bias plugs and be done with it. However, I would not use bias plugs with anything smaller than 96 brakes up front.

Ian

 

[jedhead]

You may want to reconsider sticking with the slicers. They aren't "big brake" friendly. The only serious brake kits that fit under the slicers are the 12.2 TCE SHOstoppers and the old Baer 12.5" kit (although some people have problems with that kit as well). Both have their drawbacks. The TCE kit requires the use of a fat rotor hat to run with the slicers which can lead to accelerated wear of the front wheel bearings. You also need to use a .81" "thick" rotor which is pretty wimpy IMO. I have this kit now and love it. However, I'm giving up on the slicers and will have at least 2 sets of 17's so I can run either 13 x 1.1 rotors or 12.2 x 1.1 with thinner hats year round. If you are gutting your car, you will probably be fine with the .81" hat.

One of the biggest downsides to the Baer kit is that it used a cut down 13" corvette rotor. Unless Todd Cook makes up a custom 2 piece rotor/hat for you, it can get awfully difficult and expensive to find replacement rotors for that setup. BTW, both the TCE wilwood kit and the Baer kit use modified 90-92 front spindles.

Some people have fabricated setups that use 2 piston calipers with the 11.6" 96 rotor so that it will fit under the slicers. While this is cool and probably worth doing for a lot of people, that rotor weighs more than the spindle. It sure isn't light.

Are you sure that you want to use an atx for road race stuff? Besides all of my gripes with the atx, you'll be working your brakes a lot harder with the atx because of its extra weight up front and also because you can't really engine brake too well with an automatic.

For the rears, I would install the stock vented rear setup with bias plugs and be done with it. However, I would not use bias plugs with anything smaller than 96 brakes up front.

Ian

I agree that one of the downsides to the 12.5" Baer is the custom turned rotors, however Baer will sell you new cut rotors for $200ea. I considered making new mounts for the caliper bracket to use 13" corvette rotor or the eradispeed two piece rotors. Since I wanted to increasing braking power without dramatically increasing rotating mass I decided to have Todd Cook make 12.5" rotors for the Baer set up I already had. I gained 1 pound of rotational mass over the stock rotors. I can still use the slicers. I wanted to stick with 16" wheels because I thought I can save some more rotational mass with lighter wheels and tires over 17" set up. I also lost 6 pounds of unsprung wieght from the modified hubs too. I think my setup is the best solution for a daily driver you can take to the track. If I wanted to create a track only car, I would still go with Todd's wilwood setup in a nanosecond over anyone else's setup including mine.

Bob

 

[Shoaz]

Gott throw in my dos centavos:

Yes, you can get two-piece rotors for the Baer 12.5" kit from Todd. Here's the first set ever made, well worn, been through a few sets of rotor rings already:



There's no way that mine fit under slicers, and, as others have said, even if you could you might not want to. Slicers are just not very brake friendly.

The 12" kit with PBR rotors available from some stellar SHO vendors _will_ fit under slicers, at least with a small spacer (that's what's on my silver car now, the 12.5" kit has moved to the Pumpkin). The 12" kit below:



For track use, frankly, slicers suck. They're heavy, they're too narrow to support a decent tread width, the fat spokes block radiative heat from escaping the brakes, and there's a hug reinforcing ridge that cramps the space for the brakes. They're maybe not so bad for rain tires, certainly okay for the street, but there's a reason they're not a preferred wheel on the track.

Most SHO brake kits will fit under aftermarket 16" rims, (although you should always check clearance between the spokes and the calipers), only the 13" kits will always require 17" rims.

The PBR calipers from the Baer and other SHO kits hold up just fine on the track. Many race-only SHOs use these. Wilwoods and anything from TCE are great, too, and it's really nice that the SHO community has a variety of really good choices for track-worthy brakes.

 

[ManySHOs]

Ok, if we are posting pictures, here goes.

The rust on the rotor is the result of having the car sit for 3.5 months while I completed the engine swap. Note the thin .81" rotor and extra thick hat to use with the slicers. (This is the old style TCE hat. From what I understand, the new kits that Todd ships come with the beveled edges that Jedhead and SHOaz have.) FWIW, these are the Wilwood Billet Superlite calipers; I will be replacing them with the stiffer Forged Superlites once I upgrade to 1.1" thick rotors. At this point I'll probably stick with the 12.2" diameter to save on rotational weight, cost of replacement parts and the possibility of using aftermarket 16" wheels in the future. As a daily driver, my only requirements at this time are that I have a summer rim with summer tires and a winter rim with somewhat hi-po all seasons mounted on them.

Ian

 

[drivinhard]

a nice lightweight track SHO wil be fine with 12" brakes, I'd go for a 12.2x1.1" TCE with the FSL calipers. if you want to upgrade the rear, use the vented stuff maybe, but otherwise, I wouldn't add any rotor back there. what's there is more than enough

I ran the 12.2x.810 on my 89 for awhile, stopping power was fine (I run the "A" track pads) but the skinny rotors do take a beating. the 1.1" will serve you much better (I went to .950 which was a huge improvement in wear/heat/warp resistant)

mark

 

[Shoaz]

Ok, if we are posting pictures, here goes.

The rust on the rotor is the result of having the car sit for 3.5 months while I completed the engine swap.

Nice! I'm diggin' the blue swaybar.

That rust'll come off the first time you back outta the driveway.

 

[jedhead]

My thinking with the slicers was pulling air from the rotor to help cooling. I since picked up a set of lightwieght 17X7.5 Team Dyamics that I will use on the track with 225/45-17 tires.

Bob

 

[coldsho]

i plan on using the slicers for wet racing due to theyre thiness and the fact that i already have a set. id just rather have the ability to put them on if needed. i plan on running a good light set of 17s as my dry tires.

how much to most of these kits cost? the midwestsho was 600 and that was about as much as i wanted to spend. its sounds like im just gonna convert my rears to 92s for a lil extra back there. and spend more money else where.

as far as running an atx as a road race car.
first my friend crashed my car for me. and it was either junk the car or have fun with it. honestly i love the car and never want to get rid of it. i do plan on doing a 5spd swap in time. but id rather learn the shifting acpect of road racing on my sophomore year.

i plan on getting another road race car in the future, but id rather learn as much as i can on my budget beater racer b4 i start shelling out ******** $$$. im still an average broke college student.

 

[ManySHOs]

i plan on getting another road race car in the future, but id rather learn as much as i can on my budget beater racer b4 i start shelling out ******** $$$. im still an average broke college student.

My advice (and I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears as it did on mine) is to save your money and not get involved in heavy projects like these until you are finished college. This isn't a dig; I just finished my undergraduate work a few years ago (wow I feel old saying that). Now I wish that I hadn't been so obsessed with my first SHO and that I had spent more time studying and saving my money. I don't even have that car anymore (94 atx)! Of course that doesn't mean you'll follow in my footsteps but I felt a "been there, done that" feeling when I read your post. I had no direction as an undergrad and my preferrence for working on the SHO was reflected in my grades and my bank account. FWIW, I purchased my wilwood kit used and it was ******* me financially and I probably shouldn't have done it at the time. In the end, I needed to replace the calipers, rotors and order new hardline adaptors from Todd Cook along with new pads, wheel bearings and longer studs so I could run slicers. Combined with all of the extra stuff and labor to install the wheel bearings, I really paid dearly for my setup! Too much actually! All the time that I wasted installing this stuff, removing it, refitting it, etc was time that I could've spent doing things like studying (...or partying).

I'm working on my Masters now while working 29.5 hours a week (30 hours would be full time with benefits; interesting how that works) so I am also back to being a broke college student again. This time I have convinced myself that school is first and the SHO is a distant third or forth in my life. That's one of the reasons why my engine swap took 3.5 months. It sucked but my GPA thanked me for it at the end of the semester.

I hate to sound like an old man lecturing a young college student. I'm only 26 if that helps. Like I said, it's not a dig and its your choice but stay focused on what's important! I feel really badly when I see others repeat my mistakes! If you play your cards right, you'll have all the time in the world to do all of this stuff after you graduate and the money to do it to a really sweet car

Ian

 

[jedhead]

Mine was not cheap.

 

[coldsho]

manyshos. thanks for the advice. actually im a 5time graphic design major, i plan on going into automotive design.my sho is actually one of my art projects. im doing soem crazy paint stuff. so alot of it works with my schooling. even with going to school full time and working a40+ hours a week. i stillhave time for my sho, i dont plan on being track ready for almost a year, ill be out of town for 6months saving up money as an intern so ill have soem money to toy with.

i like to go fast but i love to be able to stop

jedhead, thats a lil much for me. tho they are cargasmic

im still thinking the midwestsho kit is for me. yall gave me much to think abotu, i wont be getting the kit for another few months so maybe something will change my mind b4 then.

i might just pop on a set of 96 fronts for a while i know wheres theres one in a j-yard i can get the whole front for real cheap, just gotta find a set of 94 knuckles. least that would allow me to be able to drive the car on the street, i wouldnt take it out now. just not safe

 

[drivinhard]

I'd go "all er none".

Ie, either run a stiff multi-piston fixed caliper (TCE WW kit) with a 2 piece rotor and nutso high temp pads, and drop the big $$ for it...or save your $$ like Ian says, and just run some JY 96 brakes with some carbotech race pads, high temp fluid and SS lines. pretty cheap, and they'll probably work better than you think

and ditto ian's comments

 

[Shoaz]

Yeah, especially with some cooling ducts I think the 96 upgrade with good pads is very good bang for the buck. Ducts will put you back about $40 (much less if you're creative).

 

[coldsho]

do the ducts work well, or are they more of a placebo effect?

 

[Todd TCE]

There's ONE left:

http://www.shoforum.com/showthread.php?t=53303

 

[Shoaz]

do the ducts work well, or are they more of a placebo effect?

In my case I used to boil brake fluid all the time, and I haven't at all since installing the ducts. I've heard similar reports from others who've since installed them, but I'll let them speak up if they feel so inclined.