Alignment

[smokin joe]

So after having the subframe out for the quaifed trans install and replacing the inner & outer tie rod ends, struts and strut mounts, I thought I would take it in by my buddys shop and have it put on the alignment rack. Mostly to adjust front toe from replacing the inner and outer tie rod ends. I knew it was close but it couldn't possibly be almost right on could it?? Well it was haha!! I just thought I would post up the print out. This is with a 95MTX Gen3 subframe, intrax springs with a coil cut up front, and the front struts all the way out and all the way back in the factory adjustment slots on the shock tower. The only thing I dont like is the right rear toe... Adjustable LCA's will fix that though

 

[rubydist]

If I'm reading that right, it says the rear has toe out. While the spec allows some toe out on the rear, experience is that any toe out will result in rapid feathering of the inside edges of the rear tires, and quickly produce an annoying noise while driving.

 

[smokin joe]

Yeah you are correct, negative is toe out on the rear. I have never had any funny wear or noises on the right rear in over 50k miles, for now im not to concerned but it will get fixed when everything in the rear of the car is gone over this summer so I told him not to worry about it and we will take care of it when the new stuff goes in the rear, I just wanted the front set because this set up should be staying in for some time. And the reason the right rear toe wasn't adjusted was because the eccentric bushings on that side were stuck because it probably hasnt had a rear alignment since it left the factory 245k ago, he got the left rear to move but didnt want to risk f-ing it up at 3pm on a friday...

 

[TimboSHO]

Nice job! I don't think I've ever done tie rod ends and had it be that close. I guess there's a first time for everything....

 

[LJRuddy]

Nice job! I don't think I've ever done tie rod ends and had it be that close. I guess there's a first time for everything....

I never try to get it close. Since one will take the car in for an alignment after doing tie rods, why bother even attempting at getting it close? I could throw a rock from outside my door and hit a Firestone so I just slam the rods on and call it good.

 

[smokin joe]

Nice job! I don't think I've ever done tie rod ends and had it be that close. I guess there's a first time for everything....

I know right!! Thats with just putting the inners on and spinning the outers to where we "thought" they should be compared to the old ones, no further adjustment needed I guess! After I completed the work and I drove it we both said "Im going to laugh if its right on" And it was. But I was happy that my friends boss said "Im not even going to charge you for an alignment because after hearing what all was replaced it shouldnt be that close!"

I never try to get it close. Since one will take the car in for an alignment after doing tie rods, why bother even attempting at getting it close? I could throw a rock from outside my door and hit a Firestone so I just slam the rods on and call it good.

That was our thought process when we put everything together, didnt even count how many times to spin the new ones on, and both of us were 7 beers deep when we spun the outers on Just got lucky I guess

 

[32MTX]

I'd fix the rear camber as well

I just hooked up my car to my machine last night to get a quick reading, I wondered what it was after changing springs

-2.0 degrees front camber with Moog CC and 2 cut coils!

your camber isn't that bad, although I would shift the subframe over to the drivers side a bit if you are already maxed out on the strut towers

 

[SHOtime2511]

Id try to run about -1.5 camber on the front -1 on the rear.
Get the toe back in spec as that will cause the tire wear.

 

[SHO Dude]

Needs much more Toe In in the back. I run a ton. +0.14 makes the car much more predictable especially under heavy braking.

 

[SHOspazz92]

Needs much more Toe In in the back. I run a ton. +0.14 makes the car much more predictable especially under heavy braking.

0 Toe in the rear is where its at.

-Sam

 

[SHO Dude]

0 Toe in the rear is where its at.

If you want to guarantee that your rear tires only last 15,000 miles and the car gets tail happy when you least expect it, then yeah, Zero toe is where it's at.

As I outlined above, the more negative camber you have, the more rear toe in you need. This will keep the tires wearing evenly and make the car much more stable under heavy braking.

 

[Shoaz]

In my experience, FWIW, with about -2.5 to -2.75 rear camber and very close to zero toe in the rear, the tires wore just fine. I had a lot of camber and nearly zero toe on the silver car, too, which saw a lot of street duty, and never had any adverse wear issues or handling problems.

If you go to toe out in the rear, which some people do at the track, it can get a bit darty at high speed, but IMHO zero toe is very stable, even with a lot of negative camber.

That's just my experience, YMMV, etc., etc.

 

[SHOspazz92]

In my experience, FWIW, with about -2.5 to -2.75 rear camber and very close to zero toe in the rear, the tires wore just fine. I had a lot of camber and nearly zero toe on the silver car, too, which saw a lot of street duty, and never had any adverse wear issues or handling problems.

If you go to toe out in the rear, which some people do at the track, it can get a bit darty at high speed, but IMHO zero toe is very stable, even with a lot of negative camber.

That's just my experience, YMMV, etc., etc.

How much Camber are you running in the Front Eric?

I'm currently only at 2.0* in the front but that's simply because I can't trailer the car to any events (One hour drives to Auto-X events and at the time I was running my Star Spec tires, which were my street tires for the car as well). The rear is right at a measly 1.5*.

-Sam

 

[SHO1]

Needs much more Toe In in the back. I run a ton. +0.14 makes the car much more predictable especially under heavy braking.

What are your recommended caster/camber and toe #'s all around? especially for '89, if you suggest any diff than others for some reason?

 

[SHOspazz92]

What are your recommended caster/camber and toe #'s all around? especially for '89, if you suggest any diff than others for some reason?

Everyone is going to have different opinions based on their driving style and what they want their own car to do. For an everyday driver, The stock alignment settings are fine. Any alignment shop should have the factory specs on file.

-Sam

 

[Shoaz]

How much Camber are you running in the Front Eric?

As much as possible, which wound up being about -3.5 to -3.75. A recent rule clarification indicated that I could have slotted the sheet metal in the strut tower more, but that wasn't done.

I'm currently only at 2.0* in the front but that's simply because I can't trailer the car to any events (One hour drives to Auto-X events and at the time I was running my Star Spec tires, which were my street tires for the car as well). The rear is right at a measly 1.5*.

For autocross you might listen to the guys that are fastest in heavy FWD cars, which are kinda rare. Whoever you talk to, listen to fast guys with FWD, and bonus if they have strut suspension.

 

[SHOspazz92]

As much as possible, which wound up being about -3.5 to -3.75. A recent rule clarification indicated that I could have slotted the sheet metal in the strut tower more, but that wasn't done.



For autocross you might listen to the guys that are fastest in heavy FWD cars, which are kinda rare. Whoever you talk to, listen to fast guys with FWD, and bonus if they have strut suspension.

Yea...I probably have the Led Sled of the group, So I'm probably just going to work on my driving before I worry about getting more camber out of it. That and I would like to pro-long the life of the street driven tires a little more as it still is driven to and from events. It is pretty fun to beat up on the trailered cars out there... However they have the last laugh when they drive home in there comfortable tow rig I guess... D'oh!

-Sam

 

[SHO1]

Everyone is going to have different opinions based on their driving style and what they want their own car to do. For an everyday driver, The stock alignment settings are fine. Any alignment shop should have the factory specs on file.

-Sam

Thank you, yes there are many opinions and that is why I asked Doug for his #'s. His info on anything SHO related is much more fact than opinion as compared to most others here. If I wanted stock #'s, I can just look in my manual, no need to find a shop to tell me what I don't need to know.
Most of us know that all the stock allignment #'s do not always get it done, especially in the rear and on lowered cars. Mine seems to do fine close to factory in the front, but absolutely does not in the rear. And is with most SHO's, you cannot even get to some of the factory specs w/o modifications.

 

[SHO Dude]

There is a difference when talking about a street car and a race car. If you've got a race car that runs on a track with both left and right turns, the setup should be more square. If it's a street car, the setup is designed for predictability and drivability.

Alignments are much much more than putting it on a machine and making the numbers green.

Here are my recommendations for a street car setup on an SHO:

..........................Left......................Right

Camber...............-1.5*.....................-1.8*
Caster................+4.0*.....................+4.3*
Toe In...............-0.06*....................-0.06*

Camber...............-1.7*.....................-1.7*
Toe In...............+0.12*...................+0.12*

This spec has a couple of tenths of camber and caster split to the right to allow the car to lead up the crown in the road and travel in a straight line while on a crowned road. It also makes the assumption the tie rod ends are new and nice and tight. As the suspension parts wear, the Front Toe In numbers should be more negative. Under dynamic suspension loads, the suspension parts flex with power and braking. As you apply power, the front wheels are pulled straight. Under braking they are pushed and loaded backwards. These alignment specs can be modified to allow for normal wear and tear. Plus, the more camber you have in the rear, the more Toe In you need. In the front, the more camber you have, the less Toe Out you need.

To set up a race car, we get paid to corner weight and understand the type of racing environment the car will be running. But for a road coarse, the car is much more square.

 

[smokin joe]

I really like how my car is set up right now with the current measurements, its very easy, stable and predictable when pushing it through corners. But that may be the quaife/G3 subframe helping out too. I will be getting the rear toe in spec soon and I was planning on running close to zero toe in the rear but I think I am going to play around with it a bit and try some +rear toe and see how I like it. I think it could use some more rear stability with heavy heavy braking. But for me this is a good street/track dual purpose setup (minus the rear toe issue). This information of others setups is quite helpful! Thanks Doug, Sam, Eric and all you others