Dr. Tweak
Mad Scientist
What about Mark N's idea of flipping the bushing? The recall kit washer would provide enough strength to hold the bolt in place right?
AL Bushings
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Lance Cheney
SHO Member
Well, if we assume the plate nut assembly will bend, imagine what will happen if you try to use something that's not as thick (I think the washer is ~0.100", vs. the 0.188" thick subframe plate nut assembly). (in reality, they're probably about the same strength, since the washer has more area to distribute the force). The nice thing is that you would be able to measure it to see how much it was deforming. I'm guessing it's going to be pretty small with a hardened piece like that, but it's an easy test for someone to do...
If I can find the right parts at the junkyard (going today) I want to do an experiment to see just how much this plate bends when you torque it to 100lb-ft. I have to find something at home that is rougly equivalent to a 'ring' bushing -- maybe an old control arm -- put a recall washer on one side and the plate nut on the other and bolt it together nice and tight. Everybody can see the pictures (a lot easier than using statics to calculate it, for instance).
If I can't find any in the junkyard that have it (since I'm in CA it might be difficult) then I will pass.
-Lance
<small>[ March 18, 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Lance Cheney ]</small>
DoC-JoneS
New Member
wow. after reading the last 3 pages i'm not even sure if i feel confident in buying ANY ALSFB's. it's not a matter of being overwhelmed by technical jargon (because i most assuredly was not). it's a simple matter of the cons and failings of all (ring and cup style) SFB's. i wonder if F50's* suffered the same trials and tribulations.
*the ferrari F50 used no traditional bushings in it's suspension. all rubber/poly bushings were eliminated and or replaced by aluminum. stiff? yes. overkill? ask a driver...
*the ferrari F50 used no traditional bushings in it's suspension. all rubber/poly bushings were eliminated and or replaced by aluminum. stiff? yes. overkill? ask a driver...
drivinhard
New Member
My idea was for someone who was concerned with this whole mess to flip AND mill the end of the ring (now on the bottom) off flush with the snout (also now on the bottom) so that the washer supports it flush. Just be sure the lower half (everybody who makes these is going to have different measurements) is the correct height so the subframe/body gap remains the distance.
At the track I still worry about the rear knuckle control arm ears more than anything up front. Turn 13 at Road Atlanta if a left rear knuckle ear broke mid corner, you'd be at North GA Medical center faster than you could soil your undies.
At the track I still worry about the rear knuckle control arm ears more than anything up front. Turn 13 at Road Atlanta if a left rear knuckle ear broke mid corner, you'd be at North GA Medical center faster than you could soil your undies.
twr
whoohoo
Don't forget the cons and failings of the stock bushings too.
SHODWN
Mother Threasa
The washer has nothing to do with the Al bushing, the washer goes on the very bottom..
For those that are getting confused, this is very simple.
Very simple : Ill use wood only because it is something that anyone has access to.
Take two peices the same size, put in a spacer 5 time larger than the actual hole and tighten it up, you will notice that the bolt head will start to pull through. Now do the same test with out the spacer, you will notice that the bolt does not pull through as easy because each peice supports itself. Now do the first test again and add a LARGE washer on both sides and tighten up again, this time because of the LARGE contact area you will not pull through the wood.
The cup or stock style has something directly under the nut supporting the the unibody and you will never get the pull through.. unless the Nut was installed incorrectly. Look at how much meat the extentions of the nut have.. Does anyone see that? its 4 very little tiny sections, you can bend them with pliers and break of the extentions. What do you think is happening to them when they are being sucked into the bushing? Anyone have a clue here? Again a simple test, take a paper clip and bend it a few time and what happens. The nut like the unibody is NOT made to bend its made to clamp to a solid surface.
Beth, if you look closely the pic that Bruce shows that the unibody is not flat with the thumbwheel and the shim gauge you will also see that the nut is installed incorrectly, I love how no one really sees that not supporting the subframe to unibody correctly is not really a "major problem".
No one is reading here, everyone is just out to prove that the money that they spent was justified. It was Not.. PERIOD
Will it happen? Who knows when was the last time anyone in this post got under and inspected the unibody for rust? Also as you can see in Bruces rusty *** pic, you see scales that have fallen off, these scales are peices on the unibody making it thinner and thinner. or Unsafer and unsafer as you start to bend it because of the bushing.
Im also not exploding this into a big maybe, Im here only to inform you of findings, findings that were not available untill it was looked at. The rest of what could happen is speculation, but its also common sense that anyone can see or understand that they are flawed in a major way.
For those that are getting confused, this is very simple.
Very simple : Ill use wood only because it is something that anyone has access to.
Take two peices the same size, put in a spacer 5 time larger than the actual hole and tighten it up, you will notice that the bolt head will start to pull through. Now do the same test with out the spacer, you will notice that the bolt does not pull through as easy because each peice supports itself. Now do the first test again and add a LARGE washer on both sides and tighten up again, this time because of the LARGE contact area you will not pull through the wood.
The cup or stock style has something directly under the nut supporting the the unibody and you will never get the pull through.. unless the Nut was installed incorrectly. Look at how much meat the extentions of the nut have.. Does anyone see that? its 4 very little tiny sections, you can bend them with pliers and break of the extentions. What do you think is happening to them when they are being sucked into the bushing? Anyone have a clue here? Again a simple test, take a paper clip and bend it a few time and what happens. The nut like the unibody is NOT made to bend its made to clamp to a solid surface.
Beth, if you look closely the pic that Bruce shows that the unibody is not flat with the thumbwheel and the shim gauge you will also see that the nut is installed incorrectly, I love how no one really sees that not supporting the subframe to unibody correctly is not really a "major problem".
No one is reading here, everyone is just out to prove that the money that they spent was justified. It was Not.. PERIOD
Will it happen? Who knows when was the last time anyone in this post got under and inspected the unibody for rust? Also as you can see in Bruces rusty *** pic, you see scales that have fallen off, these scales are peices on the unibody making it thinner and thinner. or Unsafer and unsafer as you start to bend it because of the bushing.
Im also not exploding this into a big maybe, Im here only to inform you of findings, findings that were not available untill it was looked at. The rest of what could happen is speculation, but its also common sense that anyone can see or understand that they are flawed in a major way.
Slo-Sho
It wasn't me!
G3 SFB's for life! naughty
fricker66
Active Member
After reading all 4 pages, I gotta agree..........
PaulRuffo
Member
I dont know if that was in response to my post. If so, I understand what you are saying. I was just asking if in general with a northeast car, would it be beneficial to use a washer on the inside of the car to give the unibody extra strength around the rear subframe mounting points. I'm not trying to defend either style of bushings or justify them...IIRC I have cup style bushings from Josh and am very happy with them.
Paul
<small>[ March 19, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: PaulRuffo ]</small>
Dr. Tweak
Mad Scientist
Kirk, the only one confused here is you. I'm just going to go and do it and then post pics of what I'm talking and then get feedback...
91taurisho
New Member
I understand what he's talking about and I think it's worth a shot!
Scott
AutoSHO
No SHO = Mo $$$
... I dont think so. This is a pretty obvious design flaw. Will a car be alright with these bushings? Maybe for a while... But in the long run it will be better for your car to have stock, cup style, or Gen 3 bushings than ring style bushings.
<small>[ March 19, 2004, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: AutoSHO ]</small>
SHODWN
Mother Threasa
John, a much eaiser way. Just come down to the shop. Unless your on the CAn border its not that far. You have them installed so well use your car and drop the frame and see if the same thing happened to yours.
Lance Cheney
SHO Member
I'm not seeing this. The nut goes through the plate and partway out the bottom. This is clear in Beth's picture. All you are seeing in Bruce's picture is the bottom of the nut -- the part that sticks through the plate. It's intended to fit inside the hole. So long as it doesn't contact the CUP-style aluminum bushings and put all the clamping force there you should be ok (the clamping force should go on the unibody steel, of course). Since I didn't see any marks on my Delrin ones that looked like a nut imprint it appears to me that the bottom of the nut ends up staying slightly above the unibody steel when in position and torqued down.
If the nut really were 'getting sucked through' then you'd see imprints on the top of the cup-style bushings too. The nut plate would only be able to suck down enough to hit the bushing, rather than going all the way through like on the ring style (if it were that weak).
I have a set of Aluminum cup bushings that I got from Bryan because they were a great price and my Delrin ones were dying. How am I justifying my money?
-Lance
Mels
SHOVELHEAD
Hard for me to dismiss metal fatigue potential associated with the "volcano effect" distortion evidenced with the installation of the ring style bushings.
Six years in Army aviation, where dealing first-hand on a daily basis with the airframe stresses and metal fatigue accelerated by the extreme vibration encountered with rotary wing aircraft make me somewhat more sensitive to this issue than most folks who lack that (life threatening) experience.
Why do many of us here use W-rated tires on cars that most likely will never see that speed? For me, they offer a theoretical buffer, or margin of safety over a lesser rated though perfectly acceptable tire. The same to can be said for most any component on our vehicles.
I'm with Bryan, Fred and Kirk. Cup style for me, thankyou.
Six years in Army aviation, where dealing first-hand on a daily basis with the airframe stresses and metal fatigue accelerated by the extreme vibration encountered with rotary wing aircraft make me somewhat more sensitive to this issue than most folks who lack that (life threatening) experience.
Why do many of us here use W-rated tires on cars that most likely will never see that speed? For me, they offer a theoretical buffer, or margin of safety over a lesser rated though perfectly acceptable tire. The same to can be said for most any component on our vehicles.
I'm with Bryan, Fred and Kirk. Cup style for me, thankyou.
RStalveyARFF
too many shos
DUDE YOU ARE SAYING LOSING A CONTACT POINT OF YOUR FRAME ISN'T LIFE THREATENING??? People, this is the person you are trusting with your life... And for the record I have G3 bushings.
<small>[ March 19, 2004, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: SHO91MTX ]</small>
Bizzy
SHO Member
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You ever have your subframe drop while your driving? It's really not that hard to control the car. Your sorta missing the point, I'm not saying that something like a corner of the subframe dropping is nothing to worry about. But it isn't an instant car flipping being burned alive in a firey crash situation.
RStalveyARFF
too many shos
I've driven a car with the subframe hanging by the recall bolts. If the rear of the frame drops, it pulls out all slack on the steering shaft and causes a dangerous condition, and can possibly cause the steering knuckle to not articulate.
Bizzy
SHO Member
- Joined
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I've driven a car (my 95 SLO) when the bolt completely fell off the car at 55-60mph, and the drivers rear corner (i think it was drivers corner) dropped down. I had no idea at the time what it was, or what had happened. But luckily I was on the way to get an oilchange anyway at Midas (manager was my GF's brother in-law) and they showed me what happened. Then with a prybar and a little leaning on the subframe the other bolt poped out and dropped the SF down the rest of the way. Now having both rear corners drop would make steering damn near impossible.
Mels
SHOVELHEAD
...And if our Girlfriends, Wives or Children were driving at speed when the subframe drops? Would I be willing to risk gambling on their ability to wrestle the car safely off the road? No Sir.
