1999 SHO Transmission Shudder

[Axianator]

Ian and Adam,
Well the answer to this is that I have scaned a few pages from the Ford AX4S/AX4N Automatic Transaxle Referance Manual.This shows mech/hydr and electrical theory and operation in Depth for those transaxles.The Service Manual and QCdealer web site all show the same results that TCC can apply in 2nd,3rd,& 4th gears.But I can't seem to get Pic's to post on here?
For those that don't believe send me your email address and i can send them to you in a attachment.
Then some can update their notes correctly
Later
Mike

Just because the converter is capable of locking in 2nd, doesn't mean that it does.

 

[SHO32]

Ian and Adam,
Well the answer to this is that I have scaned a few pages from the Ford AX4S/AX4N Automatic Transaxle Referance Manual.This shows mech/hydr and electrical theory and operation in Depth for those transaxles.The Service Manual and QCdealer web site all show the same results that TCC can apply in 2nd,3rd,& 4th gears.But I can't seem to get Pic's to post on here?
For those that don't believe send me your email address and i can send them to you in a attachment.
Then some can update their notes correctly
Later
Mike

Have you ever hooked up a scan tool and actually monitored TCC operation while driving your SHO. I've NEVER seen Lock up in 2nd gear. From what I recall as well when I originally looked at the hydraulic flow charts it was also disabled hydraulically to prevent lockup in 2nd gear.

Ben B.

 

[93SHO'nOFF]

Have you ever hooked up a scan tool and actually monitored TCC operation while driving your SHO. I've NEVER seen Lock up in 2nd gear. From what I recall as well when I originally looked at the hydraulic flow charts it was also disabled hydraulically to prevent lockup in 2nd gear.

Ben B.

Well, I can see this is really hard for some to get,but NO I have never found a need to look at a TCC operation on any of my own cars with a scan tool they all work just fine.Only a would do that to a car that doesn't have any concerns.
Now, on the other hand I have monitored TCC operation and performed several different test's on other peoples cars for that is what I do all week long for last 17 yrs to make a living.
Looking at my HYDRALIC FLOW CHART it shows that it does.I would tend to believe the information I have been given from Ford and what Factory Instructors have taught me to be very reliable before I would listen to anyone else's opinions. I think a TSB may have been published on this in the mid 90's,I will check online for it later.
So anyway ,check your email I scaned that page as well and will mail them to you as soon as I'm done typing this.

 

[Ian Macoomb]

Why would the torque convertor lock in 2nd gear anyway? Why wouldn't it just shift to 3rd instead?

 

[93SHO'nOFF]

Now that's a good question?The only reason I would think it does, is to improve fuel mileage.Looking at the theory & operation in the manual it doesn't
give a very good reason.It just say's that"With a moderate and varying pulse-width signal to the TCC solenoid,circuit pressure changes the position of the bypass clutch control valve to result in TCC controlled slip."
I have the email address for one of the Factory Training Instructer's and the Engineer in Dearborn MI that designed the 4R55E transmission at work(they are both very cool).I will email them both on monday and will ask them to see what they say?

I have noticed especialy in 93 Town Car,Crown Vic,or T-Bird (AODE) with a slipping TCC it is easier to feel shudder shortly after 1/2 shift and also in o/d more defined than any FWD for some reason.Maybe because FWD to RWD
your almost sitting on trans and makes vibration easier to feel?
But anyway when I get a reply from either of them I will gladly post it here.
Later
Mike

This would be the only TSB i could find for a 96 V8.

Article No.
99-18-4 TRANSAXLE - AX4S - HARSH 3-2 DOWNSHIFT WHEN COASTING AROUND A CORNER AND THEN ACCELERATING - SERVICE TIP
TRANSAXLE - AX4S - SHUDDER WHEN ACCELERATING THROUGH A TURN - SERVICE TIP

 

[SHO32]

This would be the only TSB i could find for a 96 V8.

Article No.
99-18-4 TRANSAXLE - AX4S - HARSH 3-2 DOWNSHIFT WHEN COASTING AROUND A CORNER AND THEN ACCELERATING - SERVICE TIP
TRANSAXLE - AX4S - SHUDDER WHEN ACCELERATING THROUGH A TURN - SERVICE TIP[/QUOTE]

**********************************************************
TSB Below

Article No.
99-18-4

09/06/99

^ TRANSAXLE - AX4S - HARSH 3-2 DOWNSHIFT
WHEN COASTING AROUND A CORNER AND THEN
ACCELERATING - SERVICE TIP

^ TRANSAXLE - AX4S - SHUDDER WHEN
ACCELERATING THROUGH A TURN - SERVICE TIP

FORD:
1995-2000 TAURUS, WINDSTAR

MERCURY:
1995-2000 SABLE

ISSUE
A harsh 3-2 downshift when coasting around a corner and then accelerating away from the corner may occur on some vehicles. Another condition may be a shudder on turns if the throttle is held to accelerate through the turn. Both conditions are caused by air entering the fluid filter pickup area during the turn due to low fluid level.







ACTION
The fluid level in the AX4S transaxle should be set at the top end of the hatch marks on the dipstick (Figure 1) while the transaxle is at operating temperature. The vehicle must be on level ground, in Park, with the engine at idle and at operating temperature to get an accurate fluid level reading. If the fluid level is not at the top of the hatch marks, add fluid until it is at the top of the hatch marks (Figure 1). Refer to the information printed on the dipstick and/or the Owner's Guide for the correct type ATF fluid (MERCON(R) or MERCON(R) V) to add to the transaxle. Check the label of the container of ATF being used to verify if the fluid is qualified for MERCON(R) and so labeled; or is qualified for MERCON(R) V and is so labeled. In the event a fluid is qualified for both and is so labeled, it may be used in either application.

CAUTION STARTING IN 1998, ALL TAURUS AND SABLE VEHICLES REQUIRE MERCON(R) V TRANSMISSION FLUID. 1998 WINDSTAR VEHICLES BUILT BEFORE 9/9/1997 REQUIRE MERCON(R) WINDSTAR VEHICLES BUILT ON 9/9/1997 AND BEYOND USE THE NEW MERCON(R) V TRANSMISSION FLUID. THE FLUIDS ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. THE USE OF INCORRECT FLUID MAY CAUSE INTERNAL TRANSAXLE DAMAGE TO FRICTION MATERIAL.

OTHER APPLICABLE ARTICLES: NONE
WARRANTY STATUS: INFORMATION ONLY
OASIS CODES: 501000, 502000, 503000, 503300, 504000


You list that TSB: for a '96 V8 yet ALL the V8 SHO's used an AX4N transaxle, not the AX4S. I fail to see how this tsb could possibly apply to a Gen 3 SHO

Ben

 

[SHO32]

Well, I can see this is really hard for some to get,but NO I have never found a need to look at a TCC operation on any of my own cars with a scan tool they all work just fine.Only a would do that to a car that doesn't have any concerns.

***************
Ok, So I am a nut because I have had my scantool on my SHO when I was looking at other engine sensors or inputs and outputs while I was trying to fix a problem and notice that TCC is only engaged in 3rd and 4th gears. Ok, I'm a bit nutty, I did stick a supercharger on an ATX SHO when I was told the trans would never hold up. Guess what, the trans did hold up.

Now, on the other hand I have monitored TCC operation and performed several different test's on other peoples cars for that is what I do all week long for last 17 yrs to make a living.

**************
Kudo's to you. I also have been working on others cars and Trucks as a Tech for the last 13 years. I do not doubt that your books *Say* that the TCC *could* engage in second gear. I am saying that on a '93-95 3.2 Litre ATX SHO with the AXOD-E/AX4S transaxle I have NEVER seen this happen. I suppose it *Could* engage when the trans goes into FMEM and defaults to second gear and they may possibly lock to converter to allow you to limp the vehicle to a repair centre with out completly destroying the geartrain by overheating the trans.

 

[SHOZ123]

The Gen 3 has an AX4N tranny.

Getting back to the original post, I would do a complete tranny flush and change the filter. Of course Amsoil ATX fluid is the best to use.

Check the color of your fluid. Do this, with a white paper napkin and when the fluid is cold put a drop of your fluid next to a drop of new fluid. Is your fluid brown, black or does it have noticeable specks of crud in it?

 

[93SHO'nOFF]

Thank's Paul for getting the focus back to the original topic and I agree with your diagnosis 100%.Sorry Alleycat for the inconvinence If i new that so many ego's would get broken I would have never voiced my opinion on facts!
and after this post will retire from this site completely.
But before I do I just want to say to the indestructable trans man, and to think that the 96 & up Lincoln Cotinentals with the 4.6 DOHCwith near 300HP the transmissions have stayed together Extremely well without any of your help or did you design that unit too?So on that note ....Ben........ Go yourself!!!!!!
Good luck to all and nice meeting some of you,
Later,
Mike

 

[SHOtimer]

Doug

 

[SHO32]

Mike, I'm sorry to see you leave the forum just becuse of my supposed "ego". :wave:

It just amazes me how so many newcomes to the SHO game think they know it ALL. For the record my SHO with the supercharger is building OVER 300HP at the wheels which is quite a bit more than the 4.6 powered Continentals. Yes, Ford has made progress with the AXOD-E and AX4N.

I gonna miss you when your gone, and now I guess I will go myself as you suggest.

Ben...Missing Mikey already... :cry:

 

[AutoSHO]

This thread needs to cool down very quickly. There's plenty of good information here, but there is absolutely no place for personal attacks or flaming.

FWIW, The Torque convertor will only lock up in 2nd gear if you select "2" with the shifter. It does not lock up under normal driving (ie. while in 'D').

 

[Slo-Sho]

I just tried it, on my 95 ATX it does not lock up in manual 2nd, at any throttle angle, load or trans temp.

 

[Axianator]

I just tried it, on my 95 ATX it does not lock up in manual 2nd, at any throttle angle, load or trans temp.

Exactly as it should (or shouldn't, in this case).

In (hopefully) concluding my contribution this thread, I will remind everyone that just because a part or item on the car is capable of performing a certain function, that does not mean that the EEC will utilize that function. Furthermore, when it comes to items (such as the converter) that are EEC-controlled, the EEC's programming for that item will always take precendce over any possible theory or application of the item in question.

I would also like to like to echo Ben and Chris's earlier comments by reiterating the fact that, with the possible exception of FMEM (limp mode), the converter will not lock in 2nd gear under the factory programming on the Gen 2's. I have personally confirmed these facts on three Gen 2 strategies (H3Zx, D4U1, and LKZ0 ('95 3.8L SLO)) as well as two Gen 3 binaries and would be more than happy to share that proof with anyone who would like to see it.

The bottom line here is that when it comes to theory and application, the two are not always synonymous. You also cannot believe everything that you are told, even if that information does come from a factory manual or even an instructor.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread ...

 

[93SHO'nOFF]

Thank's for pointing that out to me that for all these years ,all the reference manual's,Instructor's ,Flow Chart's,Web sites,and Ford Motor co. are wrong but guess what this is how,and the reason for applicatoin for it in 2nd gear.This info comes directly from one of the Instructors.The TCC will apply in 2nd gear under a controlled modulation only in D & O/D ranges.
The reason it does this is to change the direction of the Bypass Clutch Control ValveThis valve determines whether TCC is fully applied or fully released operating under the controlled modulation.(this means it uses a pulse
width modulation like the way a fuel Injector operates),also 2nd gear is when TCC first starts to turn on the reason other than the obvious that to dampen shift feel and engagement through the convertor spring plate.91 Taurus use a TCC fully applied or fully released.Not Gen2 or Gen3 ,So how exactly were you checking yours Ben? :cry: and I'll miss you too Dude!
And also not to sound cocky but if a trans is in LIMP mode the last thing it would ever want to do is apply the TCC.Think about it?it would cause the engine to stall.So the converter does in FACT engauge only in D & O/D gear ranges in 2nd,3rd & 4th.
Now if I can say the removal of all my last post's really wasn't necessary only a few,There was some good info in them and no hard feelings boy's.
Don't lose any sleep over it
Later,
Mike
Sorry to:
AutoSHO and other mods for the disrespectfull infraction of the RULES !

 

[n8rsk8r]

here you go guys:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/automatic-transmission.htm

Don't know if you guys have seen this, but it is a GREAT way to see what goes on in an automatic!
Oh man!! now all you "Cone Bone" lovers will start snatching up all the precious atx's LOL yeah right!