2015 sho non-pp upgrade to pp?

[nnobody825]

I have already 2015 SHO non-pp(performance Package).
Can I upgrade to the pp(performance Package)?
Please reply

 

[SHOdded]

You will have to work with your dealer to figure that out. Aftersale upgrade to PP will be expensive for sure.

 

[SHONufFordTough]

Not worth it, just run a tune.

 

[bpd1151]

You can upgrade and it's "worth" is relative to your intended use.

The primary differences between the package offerings in your model year are the added auxiliary coolers.

Those additions, in terms of most owners opinions IS "worth it".

They can certainly be added post sale on a "Non PP" optioned SHO, with the exception being the PTU/Rear Diff cooler as IIRC portions of the system are designed into the rear axle assembly.

Expense is a factor, especially if you're planning on the "stealership" performing the work as they'll likely go by book hours, assuming those labor hours are even posted in there as a guide.

 

[SHONufFordTough]

You can upgrade and it's "worth" is relative to your intended use.

The primary differences between the package offerings in your model year are the added auxiliary coolers.

Those additions, in terms of most owners opinions IS "worth it".

They can certainly be added post sale on a "Non PP" optioned SHO, with the exception being the PTU/Rear Diff cooler as IIRC portions of the system are designed into the rear axle assembly.

Expense is a factor, especially if you're planning on the "stealership" performing the work as they'll likely go by book hours, assuming those labor hours are even posted in there as a guide.

.
I'm not seeing how "in terms of most owners opinions IS worth it" is even remotely correct. The only real benefit of the performance package to the average SHO owner is going to be the more aggressive gear set, and that is going to be insanely expensive if it's even possible to convince a dealership to install. Unless I'm missing something, you would need to modify internal components in the transmission/transaxle. Even then, I have seen at least 2 posts from different people referencing racing a PP and non PP SHO and getting about a car length of difference between them. (so maybe a 10th of a second or so)

The added coolers are, IMO, of zero benefit to any owner unless your planning on tracking ( autox/road course, not 1/4 mile) the car. I have seen no evidence that the PTU cooler is really helping the fluid (on a non road race car), judging from both PP and non PP owners pulling fluid at low miles and both having issues. Under normal driving conditions, even with multiple back to back pulls, the fluids are not rising in temperature enough to harm anything. If they were we would be seeing multiple failures on stock non PP cars vs PP cars, not to mention a lot of workarounds to install aftermarket coolers. This problem would only be multiplied for owners who have already added power and transmission abuse via tuning (of which, after much research before buying, I could not find any evidence). On top of this, I have seen (after much research before installing) zero evidence of drivetrain failures on mudded cars that were not overly abused. The coolers are no doubt of use on a tracked car, as road racing is probably the most harsh environment for any car imaginable.

In short, adding the performance pack to a non PP car is going to be insanely expensive, and have little to no real world results other than the gear set. In any measureable sense, your far better off just installing a tune package from any one of the tuners often mentioned on this board.

 

[OmaHahn]

There's also better shocks and "sway-bars," / suspension on the PP! It IS worth every bit of it as a package with the combination of 3:16 gear ratio, suspension, engine/trans cooler, etc. However, it is NOT worth it if you already have a brand new non-PP SHO as you will have to trade it in because there's just no way to actually make a non-PP into a PP. It really is a factory option and not an aftermarket mod.

 

[SHONufFordTough]

There's also better shocks and "sway-bars," / suspension on the PP! It IS worth every bit of it as a package with the combination of 3:16 gear ratio, suspension, engine/trans cooler, etc. However, it is NOT worth it if you already have a brand new non-PP SHO as you will have to trade it in because there's just no way to actually make a non-PP into a PP. It really is a factory option and not an aftermarket mod.

Just to be clear I wasn't saying the pp doesn't have advantages. There are reasons people opt for it and at what, $1995 its not a bad deal if you don't want drivers aid. But as you say, adding it later is going to be very expensive even if possible.

Still going to state, for the vast majority of owners who just want a fast comfy 4 door you're not missing much. The car already handles very well (esp for such a pig) and daily driving/ drag racing isn't getting an advantage with the coolers.

 

[OmaHahn]

Just to be clear I wasn't saying the pp doesn't have advantages. There are reasons people opt for it and at what, $1995 its not a bad deal if you don't want drivers aid. But as you say, adding it later is going to be very expensive even if possible.

Still going to state, for the vast majority of owners who just want a fast comfy 4 door you're not missing much. The car already handles very well (esp for such a pig) and daily driving/ drag racing isn't getting an advantage with the coolers.

Oh I know - no worries I was just throwing it out there. But drag racing will get some help with the 3:16 gear ratio. But for the most part I agree.

 

[SHOnUup4]

I'd say the trans cooler would be a great add...seeing my trans temps run into the 205 area on hot days sitting in traffic...anything to cool the temps I'd think would add longevity to the fluid and in turn the part.

Is it something you're going to be like WOW over, probably not.

Rich

 

[SHOdded]

I would give weight to what bpd has said, since he was the first to retro-mod the 2010 with the 2013+ trans/engine coolers. He has extensive experience with these in his SHO. BTW, I do believe the ACC can be retained if you do this mod to your non-PP SHO. There's a writeup on it on one of the ecoboost forums, IIRC.

 

[bpd1151]

Rather than taking offense to my post there Mr. SHONufFordTough.....

You should understand that my comments come as a result of not only personal experience, but also that I am knowledgeable in many aspects of the platform.

It also helps that I have been THE leader in mods on the late GEN model SHO's, and my achievements, and durability therein, speak for themselves.

As I originally stated, "You can upgrade and it's worth is relative to your intended use".

The auxiliary coolers are of immense benefit. I have plenty of "How-To" tutorials that not only help fellow SHO owners out in installing these items, but also details the price of those components, and more importantly, the benefits of said additions.

In relation to any other mods one performs, the expense therein is relative to the benefits achieved.

Those added components are beneficial not only for those tracking the car, but also for those who DD their SHO's and drive them spirited fashion..

A tune will do jack **** for cooling, other than turning on the cooling fans at a sooner set temperature, and/or to cycle at a more frequent rate.

I can easily quantify the differences and benefits of a mere tune, versus the addition of the added auxiliary cooling components.

When you're ready to stop being butt hurt simply cuz I called you out on your (unqualified) opinions, and ready to listen openly, without bias, then I'm ready to continue the conversation.

In the interim, my original post, and comments stand. The addition of the auxiliary coolers are beneficial, and it all depends on what (or how) one chooses to have them installed as far as the ultimate expense outlayed. So to the OP, yes, there is of benefit.

I'll also added, that there's been plenty of evidence that once a tune is applied, the slight differences in gear ratios also don't mean jack diddly do.

Carry on good people.

 

[SHOnUup4]

Just to lighten it up a bit...lol

Rich

 

[SHONufFordTough]

Rather than taking offense to my post there Mr. SHONufFordTough.....

You should understand that my comments come as a result of not only personal experience, but also that I am knowledgeable in many aspects of the platform.

It also helps that I have been THE leader in mods on the late GEN model SHO's, and my achievements, and durability therein, speak for themselves.

As I originally stated, "You can upgrade and it's worth is relative to your intended use".

The auxiliary coolers are of immense benefit. I have plenty of "How-To" tutorials that not only help fellow SHO owners out in installing these items, but also details the price of those components, and more importantly, the benefits of said additions.

In relation to any other mods one performs, the expense therein is relative to the benefits achieved.

Those added components are beneficial not only for those tracking the car, but also for those who DD their SHO's and drive them spirited fashion..

A tune will do jack **** for cooling, other than turning on the cooling fans at a sooner set temperature, and/or to cycle at a more frequent rate.

I can easily quantify the differences and benefits of a mere tune, versus the addition of the added auxiliary cooling components.

When you're ready to stop being butt hurt simply cuz I called you out on your (unqualified) opinions, and ready to listen openly, without bias, then I'm ready to continue the conversation.

In the interim, my original post, and comments stand. The addition of the auxiliary coolers are beneficial, and it all depends on what (or how) one chooses to have them installed as far as the ultimate expense outlayed. So to the OP, yes, there is of benefit.

I'll also added, that there's been plenty of evidence that once a tune is applied, the slight differences in gear ratios also don't mean jack diddly do.

Carry on good people.

I'm the one that is butthurt, but a simple disagreement with your "vast" knowledge leads to a post like that? Get real. I guess the previous 15+ years of being a gearhead count for nothing?


I'm sorry, but your "advice" is bad, especially given to the "average" (or majority as you stated) SHO owner. The average owner is going to at most mod the car to the point of full boltons. They are not going to take the car to 600+ WHP. I can see the point of doing cooling mods on the drivetrain once you have taken (and exceeded in your case) the driveline to the realistic limits of it's stock potential. No doubt on your setup you need every bit of advantage you can to keep the poor stock drivetrain under the car with the added strain of over twice the stock horsepower. But its pretty safe to say your car is FAR from the "majority" of SHOs, or even modded SHOs, out there.


The average owner is not going to get there, and you can "quantify" the differences and benefits, but the reality is not only are we NOT seeing a large amount of driveline failures (or abnormal fluid failures) but we are not seeing any significant difference in failures or fluid quality between PP cars with cooling and non PP cars. This is also true in the flex, where a simple search will show PTU failures few and far between (and its usually leaks on the earlier cars) not to mention so few transmission failures its statistically zero.


There can be no doubt if you go bombing down a back country road for an extended spirited drive, at the end of the drive a PP car is going to have lower fluid temps. But honestly, you really think Ford did not take this into account? The reality of the situation is nobody is seeing failures. PP owners are pulling PTU fluid at 15-30K miles and seeing the same black gunk as I did (so its obviously not preventing that). Nobody is talking about transmission failures on non PP cars, or any of the ecoboost drivetrains, that I can see on any forum including this one.
And the real proof in the pudding is the aftermarket. You’re telling me with all the other mods out there, this is really adding true benefit to non tracked cars, and yet LMS or Unleashed are not jumping at the bit (after 5 years mind you) to sell me a added aftermarket cooler package? On top of all that, you truely believe Ford, in this day and age, has released a car that can't handle spirited driving and a simple drive thru the country once a week or the occasional trip to the local drag track is going to result in fluid failure, which leads to expensive under warranty work? Comeon man.


I'm sorry you got all insulted because someone disagreed with your vast knowledge, but get over it. Nobody is saying what you did with the coolers doesn't make sense on your ride, or even for someone that wants to really push their non PP car on a road course. I'm glad your willing and able to share experience so others who really do need this mod don't have to figure it out solo. But the average owner is going to spend a pile of cash and effort getting this done (I shiver at the thought of a dealership quote for this if they cant do it themselves) and see no real world benefit. They will still need to change the PTU fluid, and they won't see any real world change in transmission wear or fluid quality.


On a last note, a quote from the Engineer that designed the damm thing (from road and track):


"Well, Ford engineer Mark Lecrone told me they wanted to build a version for the hard-core enthusiast who likes to do track days. He explained all changes are geared to make the car more durable and cool-running so you can run on the track all day without heat worries and still drive home, pick up the kids at school and park in your garage. (No one will ever know.) To that end, they've modified the brakes, suspension and Power Take-Off unit"


Doesn't sound like the average everyday SHO owner to me...

 

[SHOnUup4]

Seeing as I follow just about every source of ecoboost news out there...

There are a ton of PTU failures, many transmission failures and blown motors...you have to really dig and look for these in places...junk yard phone calls and searches for extra parts have led me to see there's alot more people out there experiencing these failures than you'd think.

After just 47k on my SHO, the trans fluid was cooked...that was after only 3 trips to the dragway with very limited runs each time...besides that, the car is driven like a kitten unless there is a worthy competitor looking to be SHOwn what this land yacht can do.

So, I still highly recommend the suggested coolers as stated before...that is, if you actually care for longevity of your vehicle. If your just some guy who figures I'll beat up on this one and trade it in...well, shame on you.

After 15 years of being a "gearhead" I'd think you'd place a higher priority on such things that promote a lower temp for fluids in vital parts of the vehicle.

To dismiss the advantages of cooling features is odd...as these cars heat up past operating temps real easy in any kind of temp over 70*...trust me, I change the fluids more than most and can tell the heat they take on is serious.

I understand you may be in a "joust" here, but telling people with bolt ons these wouldn't be a good idea is just wrong. I guess if you never go WOT and live in the artic circle I understand.

Rich

 

[SHOnUup4]

And, there's many people that participate on the forums and Facebook that just disappear...many of these people I have contact with and can't discuss their failures because of promises I have made...but they are out there.

Rich

 

[SHONufFordTough]

Tens of thousands of these cars out there, but your having to "dig" for evidence of transmission failure and PTU failure (BTW, how are you digging for junkyard phonecalls?) Most of the PTU failures I have seen on ecoboost.com were on early cars (espcially the early model edges, they leak like mad), and they were fluid leaks (seal failure), not the PTU blowing its guts out because the fluid was bad.

On top of that, is there ANY evidence that the rate of failure on non PP cars is worse than PP cars? If not, and I have seen none, how can you make the statement that the additional cooling is doing anything in the way of preventing these failures?

Im big enough to admit if I'm wrong, and I'm not going to stoop to the level of personal attacks like the other guy, but show me ANY evidence whatsoever that ties together PTU and (in particular) transmission failure to the non PP cars without the additional cooling. The golden standard on this website and others is that the PTU fluid is the culprit, and cooling or no your only recourse is to swap it every 25-30K miles regardless of PP or not. Of course if you ignore this advice you risk damage to the car. From the pictures on this very board of PP cars with sludged up gunk in the PTU its pretty evident its not making a real world difference.

Like I said, where is LMS or the others on this issue? Why is the aftermarket not jumping all over this if a majority of owners need this mod? Why is Ford not making it a standard option so they don't have to pay for warrenty work/bad feelings from owners. Why no TSB. Most importantly, if its REALLY an issue where is the proof that doing this is going to prevent any real world cost down the road in failed parts? I'm just not seeing it.

You ask how I cannot see the value after 15 years of wrenching on modded cars. The answer is, I have seen ALOT of people (including my own dumb self) waste money on things that didn't result in real world results. I'd rather spend the money where it counts, as at least in my case its a finite resource. It just comes down to risk vs reward. If a company was going to sell you a kit to prevent windows from breaking in your house due to it getting too hot outside, but nobody in your town had ever had it happen, would you spend the money? I think not.

Edit: I'm not trying to get into a multipage arguement over the internet here (insert random meme here about forum arguements). I just don't see the point of doing this mod unless your really beating on the car. Its a factory car, transmission failures are virtually nonexsistant by any measurable sense and PTU failures are not being tied to lack of cooling. There is no TSB, no aftermarket company seeing a need and making piles of cash off it, and no evidence...

 

[SHOnUup4]

Not looking to argue with you...

But to answer some of your questions directed towards me.

Digging would be a reference to junk yards and rebuilders of said parts aren't calling me.

I'll agree that the ptu cooler probably isn't doing the job to cool said parts like it should, but that's not even an option to add on...it's an entirely different unit that'd be bought separately. More likely than not, the fluid is overheating and being pushed out of the vent and most are being told it's a seal before Ford admits to the faulty design (assumption, take it how you will)

Why would aftermarket companies not be all over these cooling systems? The same reasons we have a hard time getting aftermarket parts, sheer #'s produced and the fact that they'd have to spend a crap load of money on R&D to produce a product that already exists for a small market.

And, everyone isn't in such a "finite" situation as yours and have wrenching buddies or the ability to do it themselves, which cuts the price down considerably.

I think there's a reason my car retains its "freakSHO" status, it doesn't get driven as hard as some would think. So when the time comes to show its peppiness, it's up to the task. That being said, I'll defer to my black trans fluid from the previous post.

If a cooler can get someone 10k extra miles before the breakdown of fluid, that could potentially save them a large cost.

Rich

 

[SHONufFordTough]

Not looking to argue with you...

But to answer some of your questions directed towards me.

Digging would be a reference to junk yards and rebuilders of said parts aren't calling me.

I'll agree that the ptu cooler probably isn't doing the job to cool said parts like it should, but that's not even an option to add on...it's an entirely different unit that'd be bought separately. More likely than not, the fluid is overheating and being pushed out of the vent and most are being told it's a seal before Ford admits to the faulty design (assumption, take it how you will)

Why would aftermarket companies not be all over these cooling systems? The same reasons we have a hard time getting aftermarket parts, sheer #'s produced and the fact that they'd have to spend a crap load of money on R&D to produce a product that already exists for a small market.

And, everyone isn't in such a "finite" situation as yours and have wrenching buddies or the ability to do it themselves, which cuts the price down considerably.

I think there's a reason my car retains its "freakSHO" status, it doesn't get driven as hard as some would think. So when the time comes to show its peppiness, it's up to the task. That being said, I'll defer to my black trans fluid from the previous post.

If a cooler can get someone 10k extra miles before the breakdown of fluid, that could potentially save them a large cost.

Rich

This is my last post on the topic, and you just proved the entire point.

You can either add a cooler to the car that has dubious value, has not been proven to show real world results (pp vs non PP), is expensive, potentially could add leaks etc (double that since its not a factory installed option, been there before with after production coolers) and in most cases for most people is not nessicarry...... or you can do sooner than normal fluid changes (espcially on the PTU). And even if you do add the coolers, or have them on your factory car, you STILL are recommmended to do sooner than normal changes.

The coolers, as stated by Ford, are NOT installed on the car to prevent temps from rising on the average car on the average sprited drive. This is a statement from the guy that designed the thing. They are not designed to increase fluid life on a daily driver (this is proved by the fact that the PP and non PP cars have the SAME FLUID INTERVAL). Its designed to keep you from overheating the cooled units in a road course racing situation. The two situations (spirited drive on a public road vs repeated circuits of a track) are complete different. There simply isn't any comparasion.

This is true of every "performance pack" that Ford offers. There is a real push by Ford and other companies (GM for one) to provide a trackable car you can also DD. Look at the PP on the 13-14 GT500, its the same thing. Adding aftermarket style coolers on your factory car so you can go out and not boil the fluid out of the car after a few laps.

 

[SHOnUup4]

So you are saying these are designed for track use but wouldn't help in daily driving situations...now I'm lost

Rich

 

[SHONufFordTough]

So you are saying these are designed for track use but wouldn't help in daily driving situations...now I'm lost

Rich

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. It's a performance pack, not a longevity pack.

There is zero relation between street driving and tracking the car. On a track youre driving the car as hard as possible for extended duration. It's literally the hardest thing you can put the car thru.

Unless your a homicidal maniac you can't do this on a public road. Youre not running the car as hard as it can for 30+ minutes at a time. Youre not building heat over an extended period.

There are two possible outcomes here. Ford screwed everyone by not adding a 500 dollar or less cost to them option to every car. They risk a recall by not adding a already designed low cost part to the car.

OR its like Ford, the company that designed the car, stated. It's intended to cool the car on extended high performance track situations where extended and repeated acceleration without pause is causing a temperature rise.

I'm not seeing how anyone could not see the difference, especially when it he company that built the car stated this virtually word for word.

I'm done, tired of argueing over a moot point. Assuming you're like 99 percent of the owners and dont track the car, its not hurting anything to add the coolers (if they don't leak) except your wallet. If you haveoney to throw away more power to you. I'd rather spend it on useful mods or a different hobby.