i drove a new citadel durango and wasn't terribly impressed. The engine was stronger than my mom's old 5.9 Durango but it didn't actually feel a whole lot quicker, felt a little unsettled on the highway too. Was a toooonnn bigger though.
The Explorer Sport is back with EcoBoost V6
- Thread starter typhoon5000
- Start date
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RonPorter
SHO Club of America
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/28/2013-ford-explorer-sport-brings-sho-like-performance-to-big-cuv/
They say it's on par with other performance midsized SUVs, yet only compare it to the Durango R/T, Cherokee Hemi and Range Rover Sport and never mention the SRT8. One other thing that worries me is they pushed it's fuel economy more than any other specification, which it's best in class, but with performance customers, that's typically not one of the top things on their list. The added grunt also doesn't increase its tow rating over the 5K lbs the NA V6 can do.
5K #s handled 80%+ of what most folks tow. Buddy of mine has an older Explorer and a 21' Sea Ray that could be towed with a new one.
RonPorter
SHO Club of America
IMNSHO, the "original" Explorer Sport looked like shyte and was a POS.
99% of Explorer folks didn't do, nor cared, about serious off-road. Buy an old Bronco or a Jeep.
Lemme guess that none of your "Explorer Fans" ever bought a "new" Explorer. I thought so. Ford, nor any other mfr, doesn't care about you.
RonPorter
SHO Club of America
As someone else so kindly put it....
"What's the point of the Explorer Sport if it's just going to compete with other Ford performance SUVs like the Taurus SHO?"
-Sam
Why does Ford care? it's another option, and it may get buyers that would look elsewhere.
This whole "urban legend" about mfr "X" not building "Y" because it will cut sales of "Z" is BS. Thinking of the Camaro-versus-Corvette comments from 40+ years ago.....
And, one of the closest-held secrets is what each mfr "really" makes on each vehicle (not what the dealers make). They may prefer that more folks buy Explorer or Flex Ecos over SHOs.
SHOspazz92
Banned
Getting you so riled up over such a lite hearted comment made it worth posting for sure.
-Sam
-Sam
RonPorter
SHO Club of America
Getting you so riled up over such a lite hearted comment made it worth posting for sure.
-Sam
For you young 'uns, you don't remember all the BS about that in the past. BS then, BS now!!
SHOspazz92
Banned
For you young 'uns, you don't remember all the BS about that in the past. BS then, BS now!!
:wave:
You're alright Ron.
-Sam
typhoon5000
Ferd Enganear
The Durango R/T and Cherokee Hemi are rated at 13/20 with 4WD, MDS and the current 6-spd (2012 model year). I would say that's a big difference. I'm sure the 8-spd will help, but I don't see it closing that much of a gap. I'm glad they are offering a diesel option though, but most people won't buy it because it will be an expensive option.
shobote
SHO Member
Jeep has been building the GC with the turbo diesel in the Detroit plant for a few years, but only sold it overseas. It is Fiat sourced, VM Motari, and the price over there is not much more. Turbo diesels get the best mpg, have tons of low end torque and last forever. Emissions are actually less than gas engines with the clean deisel tech. Why doesnt Ford have these rather then going to small dispacement gas turbo's ? Eco boost mpg is well below a turbo diesel, and requires costlier fuel, as diesel fuel is cheaper than 87.
typhoon5000
Ferd Enganear
Owning a turbo diesel, I know all about the advantages, but they have their disadvantages as well. First off diesel is and has been for a while now more expensive than 87 octane. I've been paying $4+/gal for over 6 months. Right now diesel costs about the same as premium gasoline at around $4.20/gal in the Detroit area.
Second, the emissions argument gets into a lot of chemistry specifics and politics, but basically diesels make a lot of CO2, which the EPA has greater restrictions on in the US compared to the rest of the world. To get around that in the US, you have to add a lot of complicated and costly emissions controls. These can actually reduce the efficiency of the motor by up to 20% and increase vehicle cost thousands of dollars. That's why a diesel option on a heavy duty pickup truck costs about $7K now.
I have a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) on my '08 F-350 and when it gets clogged and needs to be cleaned out, my truck goes into a "regeneration" mode which burns extra fuel to increase exhaust gas temperatures to incinerate what's in the DPF. This drops my fuel economy by about 3mpg avg per tank and a giant white cloud of smoke comes out of my exhaust and is reported as "normal operation" by Ford during the regen process. Tell me that's good for emissions! Now I can get 24mpg hwy out of my truck, which I'm very happy with, but the extra running and fuel costs actually make it more costly than a gas engine. (oil changes are $90 with 15 qts of oil). Which is partly why I'm selling it to my Dad.
In the end, with all of the emissions equipment on a diesel in the US, a direct injected, turbocharged gas engine with variable cam timing can actually be almost as efficient as a similar size diesel, but costing much less as well as weighing much less since diesels require an iron block.
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shobote
SHO Member
Sorry but you are way off in your mpg estimates. Imperial MPG HWY of the Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel is 39 mpg with the 6 speed trans. That equates to 32 mpg US GAL. With the 8 speed ZF, it will be higher, at least 12 mpg more than the eco boost, and with 407 ft. lbs Diesel fuel cost less than 87 everywhere I have seen in the midwest. There is a reason 90 percent of the cars in europe are turbo diesels; fuel is $9 a gal.
typhoon5000
Ferd Enganear
The fuel economy numbers I posted were for the Hemi V8 off of the EPA website.
Also, the testing they do in Europe to come up with those FE numbers is completely different than the US cycle and so you can't just translate them to US from imperial and expect it to be the same as EPA numbers.
Also, the testing they do in Europe to come up with those FE numbers is completely different than the US cycle and so you can't just translate them to US from imperial and expect it to be the same as EPA numbers.
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shobote
SHO Member
Here is an article where the numbers are shown rated in US; http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/02/jeep-20110221.html
28 combined mpg city/hwy for the diesel, with the 6 speed. With the 8 speed it will be 30 combined or more, over 50% more fuel efficient than the eco boost, and with notably more torque, and would dirve for many more miles wihout rebuild. The 08 F-350 is not something to compare to, as it is very old deisel engineering, nothing like the latest models from Germany and Italy. Audi kicked tail at Lemans with diesel, the Touraeg TDI gets 35 mpg Hwy, and the Passat with the TDI gets 43 mpg hwy, and drives better than any of the gas versions. No eco boost will ever come close to that.
28 combined mpg city/hwy for the diesel, with the 6 speed. With the 8 speed it will be 30 combined or more, over 50% more fuel efficient than the eco boost, and with notably more torque, and would dirve for many more miles wihout rebuild. The 08 F-350 is not something to compare to, as it is very old deisel engineering, nothing like the latest models from Germany and Italy. Audi kicked tail at Lemans with diesel, the Touraeg TDI gets 35 mpg Hwy, and the Passat with the TDI gets 43 mpg hwy, and drives better than any of the gas versions. No eco boost will ever come close to that.
typhoon5000
Ferd Enganear
When it comes down to it though, the engine option is going to cost thousands of dollars more than the gas engine because of the costly after treatment and fuel systems. It might be more efficient, but Americans don't like to pay the extra cost up front and wait to recoup their money in savings. They want the cheapest solution now. The EcoBoost V6 has also been proven to be just as reliable as diesels with their EcoBoost Torture Test: http://www.ford.com/new/f-150-torture-test/. And these newer diesels are actually becoming more finicky because they have to run hotter and are more complex to meet the ever increasing emissions stds.
Oh, you have no idea how much technology is in the 6.4L and new 6.7L Powerstroke diesels. I'm well aware of what Audi and the VW group are doing in and out of racing, but the Powerstroke is on par with their tech in street applications, just on a larger scale (displacement wise).
Just to start, the 6.4L has a dual sequential turbocharger system with variable geometry on the 2nd, larger turbo. It also is common rail with Piezo injectors to keep it quiet. If you read into it, you'll find much more advances that have gone into it. Too much to list here.
I won't even get into the 6.7L since it is very advanced, but if you're inclined, here's a good article: http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ford/0910dp_ford_6_7l_powerstroke_diesel_engine/viewall.html
RonPorter
SHO Club of America
????
Not around here (MI), or through Ohio down into KY. Diesel is as Josh described.
Plus, there seems to be a lag factor in diesel pricing. I suspect diesel will ramp up soon. Then, when gas drops, it will remain high.
IIRC, last year diesel was about $.75 higher than 87.
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