Name that knock?! Help in figuring this out?

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StreetlightSHO

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I've got a almost identical clack coming from my engine....
My dad is doing my front 60k and a valve lash for me with me being at college and the SHO living at home.
We are hoping the lash is the problem, although I've already done a top 60k and another separate lash adjustment. And rod bearings, timing belt, etc....

Would there be a possibility that the clack is coming from a bad valve spring? Just an idea thrown out from my dad....
 

vortex2450

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I've got a almost identical clack coming from my engine....
My dad is doing my front 60k and a valve lash for me with me being at college and the SHO living at home.
We are hoping the lash is the problem, although I've already done a top 60k and another separate lash adjustment. And rod bearings, timing belt, etc....

Would there be a possibility that the clack is coming from a bad valve spring? Just an idea thrown out from my dad....

Clack is another good word to describe the noise.

I believe the problem is in the heads due to the location of the sound as well as the huff in the exhaust note that is only present when the "knock" or as you put it "clack" is audible.

I'm still looking for a good long handled screw driver in the pile of them dad has laying all around and the spark plug boot on cyl #2 still refuses to budge so I'll have to get the intake off to get a better angle on it.

Edit:
Compression Test Results!

Compression is all over the place.... =/

Cyl #1 - 185psi Cyl #2 - 170 psi Cyl #3 - 195 psi

Cyl #4 -185 psi Cyl #5 - 160 psi Cyl #6 - 170 psi

This is a notable change from where it was 6 weeks ago after I fixed the miss caused by a spit shim/carbon build-up.

My previous numbers were:

1. 195 psi 2. 185psi 3. 195 psi

4. 185psi 5. 190psi 6. 190psi



A thought: I hate Seafoam was a passion that burns deeper than the helium in the sun..
 
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Showgun

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Warm the boot up with a hairdryer to make it more pliable. That should make life a little easier for you.
I'm guessing you twisted tje boot sideways to break it loose first?
 

vortex2450

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Warm the boot up with a hairdryer to make it more pliable. That should make life a little easier for you.
I'm guessing you twisted tje boot sideways to break it loose first?

Yeah I got the boot off, once the intake was out of the way I just pulled upwards and twisted with a constant force, came off cleanly, just forgot to put di-electric grease on that one.


Any ideas on the knock given the compression test results?
 

SHOYAY

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Still could be valve lash etc, not allowing proper flow etc and maybe one valve is slapping the top of the piston, just my opinion.
 

Showgun

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Got to agree with SHOYAY : valve lash adjustment.

This is a notable change from where it was 6 weeks ago after I fixed the miss caused by a spit shim/carbon build-up

--- what Shim was that? A valve train shim?

As far as compression: might not be the best conditions for that test. cold, engine should be warm etc etc. You could always do another test later in better conditions --

the low cylinders are on the rear bank?
 
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JRA2000TL

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My 90 had a rotten tap I could never track. It's Daniel's (SHOhopefull) now. It sounded similar to that but maybe not as loud or severe. I pulled the valve covers, and found a pitted shim and cam lobe on the front left cylinder (if you're facing the car). I swapped in a new cam and shim (BTW all valves were in spec), put it back together, and it still tapped!

I drove over 3k miles with the engine doing that, and it still does it! If it were a bearing, it should have killed the motor long ago. The only thing left I could think of was a sticky valve because it was concentrated to that 1 cylinder.
 

93rev2sev

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Clack is another good word to describe the noise.

I believe the problem is in the heads due to the location of the sound as well as the huff in the exhaust note that is only present when the "knock" or as you put it "clack" is audible.

I'm still looking for a good long handled screw driver in the pile of them dad has laying all around and the spark plug boot on cyl #2 still refuses to budge so I'll have to get the intake off to get a better angle on it.

Edit:
Compression Test Results!

Compression is all over the place.... =/

Cyl #1 - 185psi Cyl #2 - 170 psi Cyl #3 - 195 psi

Cyl #4 -185 psi Cyl #5 - 160 psi Cyl #6 - 170 psi

This is a notable change from where it was 6 weeks ago after I fixed the miss caused by a spit shim/carbon build-up.





A thought: I hate Seafoam was a passion that burns deeper than the helium in the sun..

Wait, this is the same car that spit a shim?!

That explains everything.
Edit: EVERY thing
 

93rev2sev

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What I think you're hearing is a powerstroke leak, past the valve that got burnt to **** while it was stuck open.
 

93rev2sev

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If you want that car to run right, you're going to have to have that head off, inspected and rebuilt, if necessary.

Think about what a spit shim means...

It means the shim lost contact with the cam lobe.

That means the valve was stuck open. Either it's bent, or there was enough carbon built up on the stem, that it got jammed up.

You got it moving again, but it was run for a while with that valve partially open. That means the combustion process was not contained to the cylinder, but also to the runner that valve was supposed to seal (edit: which includes the valve stem and seal...which is probably blown out).

In my case, it was the number one(a) exhaust valve. I never took the head off of that engine, but I can almost guarantee that exhaust valve and seat were toast.

Or what you could be hearing is the valve getting stuck and bouncing the shim off of the cam lobe. Either way, if you're as determined as you say are, order up some head gaskets and have confidence the head is OK by having it rebuilt.
 
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Showgun

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K, no one said anything the first time I asked.... Because like with JRA2000TL, if the shims are in spec and its still clacking (like mine) maybe that could be a possibility.

--It was an oversight on my part so it's a good thing you brought it up again.
--- but this shim discussion could explain a lot too.
 
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vortex2450

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Still could be valve lash etc, not allowing proper flow etc and maybe one valve is slapping the top of the piston, just my opinion.

I'm with you here except this issue didn't slowly occur, it was an immediate results of the engine running in extreme conditions.

Whatever is wrong was caused by a really hot engine, running really thin/hot oil. I'm not saying the valve didn't come out out of spec though..



Got to agree with SHOYAY : valve lash adjustment.



--- what Shim was that? A valve train shim?

As far as compression: might not be the best conditions for that test. cold, engine should be warm etc etc. You could always do another test later in better conditions --

the low cylinders are on the rear bank?

One of the exhaust shims for cylinder #2 had ejected ( without any damage) and the car collected a carbon deposit in between the valve and the seat. I remedied this by putting the shim back in and running Marvel Mystery Oil through the cylinder.

And about the test, your absolutely right, I was so caught up with the spark plug boot being stuck I forgot the engine needed to be at operating temps, I'm run another test tomorrow for more reliable results..


My 90 had a rotten tap I could never track. It's Daniel's (SHOhopefull) now. It sounded similar to that but maybe not as loud or severe. I pulled the valve covers, and found a pitted shim and cam lobe on the front left cylinder (if you're facing the car). I swapped in a new cam and shim (BTW all valves were in spec), put it back together, and it still tapped!

I drove over 3k miles with the engine doing that, and it still does it! If it were a bearing, it should have killed the motor long ago. The only thing left I could think of was a sticky valve because it was concentrated to that 1 cylinder.

When I was under the rear valve cover I gave all the shims/lobes a visual inspection , and while not a definite way to say they are in spec , there was no visual wear of any kind.



So no chances of it being a broken valve spring then?

I agree with SHOWGUN, it's absolutely possible and after giving it thought it could be a very plausible explanation.

Giving that the knock will not immediately start with a cold engine start but will become obvious after idling about 45 seconds to 1 minute I was assume it's a part that is constantly moving and fatigued from the overheating and becomes stressed once it heats up.

What I'm saying is that a valve springs is a very real possibly.

I will have to secure another 5mm hex on a 3/8" adapter tomorrow morning but hopefully I'll have a decent amount of time to take the cover off and inspect everything..

Expect ore accurate comp test results as well as some pictures later on in the day tomorrow.

Thanks for all the ideas,
Josh

EDIT: Sorry I didn't realize you guys had posted before I put up m reply..

If you want that car to run right, you're going to have to have that head off, inspected and rebuilt, if necessary.

Think about what a spit shim means...

It means the shim lost contact with the cam lobe.

That means the valve was stuck open. Either it's bent, or there was enough carbon built up on the stem, that it got jammed up.

You got it moving again, but it was run for a while with that valve partially open. That means the combustion process was not contained to the cylinder, but also to the runner that valve was supposed to seal (edit: which includes the valve stem and seal...which is probably blown out).

In my case, it was the number one(a) exhaust valve. I never took the head off of that engine, but I can almost guarantee that exhaust valve and seat were toast.

Or what you could be hearing is the valve getting stuck and bouncing the shim off of the cam lobe. Either way, if you're as determined as you say are, order up some head gaskets and have confidence the head is OK by having it rebuilt.

I follow you, and from what I can visualize is that while the valve assembly was moving again it was already burnt up and all it took was the the right conditions (hot engine,thin oil, 4500rpm pass) to completely destroy it. Am I on the right path in this though process?

As I said I'll have the rear cover off tomorrow so I can inspect it.

Can I get away with just having the rear head rebuilt? Wouldn't be any reason in spending a notable amount of money fixing something that isn't broke, correct?
 
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93rev2sev

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You should be able to tell once you get the back head off and on the bench, weather or not the front head needs to be touched.

Edit: furthermore, you'll need a lot of gaskets and it might be cost effective to buy the whole set, which includes both head gaskets.
 
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vortex2450

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You should be able to tell once you get the back head off and on the bench, weather or not the front head needs to be touched.

Edit: furthermore, you'll need a lot of gaskets and it might be cost effective to buy the whole set, which includes both head gaskets.


Hmmm.... well to be honest it would be more "cost effective" for me to find another engine at that point. I know the upper gasket set from SHOsource is $360 so even if I find it for $300 I'm still looking at the parts+labor to have the head rebuilt.

when I look tomorrow I'll start considering my options.

I'd hate to have an engine sitting around because of some valve issues but on the other hand I have not steady income and what money I do make is meager..
 

vortex2450

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Update: This is getting out of hand.

I took the intake and valve covers off yesterday with extreme care. I Looked over the cams/valves and had my brother turn the engine over while I observed the valve train. I made a video for reference as I was doing this.

I didn't notice anything the seemed unusual so the problem must be hidden (burnt up valve/broken spring).

Moving on, I put the covers back one with a fresh coat of black rtv, and methodically put the engine back together. Once I'm and everything is tightened down I start the car to be sure I didn't miss anything. It starts right up and runs just like usual with the knocking noise being subtle, I let it idle about 2 minutes before cutting it off.

Today I needed to go to the store , so I start the car up and almost immediately it's making this overwhelming obnoxious ticking/valve train noise. I step out of the car while it's still on and the sound is definitely coming from the rear head. It sounded what you would expect a valve-train to sound like with out any oil.

I cut the car off after about 45 seconds from the time I started it. I scratch my head and go inside. I come back out and now it just won't start.

only codes I pulled are 111 and 172. Which gives me nothing.

the only other time the car has not started is when I overheated and the oil pressure was insanely low. Now that I think on it I didn't notice any oil squirting onto the valve-train in the rear head like it did in the front. (Squirting from some sort of valve under the timing chains).

I just took this engine down to the top of the heads. I didn't leave anything laying in the head when I put the cover back on, I double checked all my bolts/connections. I started the car after I put it back together and it ran fine.

What is the deal? Needless to say I've found a variety of engines with in 200 miles of me and now it's becoming time for serious consideration on a swap, I can't possibly keep going through this ordeal with Diane (the car).
 

kevinspann

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Time to stop ******* with it, just swap the engine - I'd use the one in that rusty ATX you have, personally...

If the shim was spit why would that leave the valve open? Seem to me like the valve just wouldn't open all the way without the shim.
 

SVOFANATIC

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I'm curious to as if you may have a clogged oil gallery (misspelled) No oil squirting and ticking maybe this is your issue. No oil getting to the rear head of course is quite bad and I would deffinatly get it rebuilt now that it has run so much.
 
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