V8 Porting

[E1]

For dyno numbers, the car that we had testing them just suffered a catastrophic failure..... either his piston hit his spark plug or his rings let go or his valve did something.... either way it goes its not good. If someone wants to do this and would do a dyno before, i will pay 50 dollars (should be more than enough for a dyno run and the trouble) to go get it dyno'd after. PM for details please!

I'm a little unclear.
Do you need a stock V8 SHO to dyno, and then put BBB's on it and re-dyno it, and then return it to stock?
Or do you want someone who is BUYING BBB's to do before and after pulls?

I've got a V8 SHO or 4 laying around in Lombard, Illinois, and might let you test with one of them, but I'm not in the market for any BBB's right now.

 

[SHODWN]

Question.. You say knife edged? it Is already "knife edged" from the factory, also why only 1.5mm Thats nothing compared to what you could do with them. Also WHY the use of "stage" in anything. I dont get the stage part of it at all.

What are you going to use to calibrate the car after? taking the plates out and adding 1.5mm is a small difference what will that do to the duty cycle of the injector and which injectors? because the 96-98 flow differently then the 99's. How will the MAF react?

And you will also be selling corrected gaskets too right? because if you make the openings larger in the LCM then the gaskets will not match your increased air flow. you will have to enlarge the gaskets.

Sorry it seems like Im being a dick here but I would like to know if you are dyno testing this stuff yourself so you can sell it or your just taking a stab at it and using my charts from what I did 4 years ago and selling it that way.

The "stage 2" lower is not the same as a BBB. The butterflies are completly removed, and the actual ports are enlarged about 1.5mm, as well as the bridge seperating the two is knife edged so the flow has a smoother transition. So far, there will be no way to leave the butterflies in, as I cannot find a company who would make the plates for me at a reasonable cost in reasonable quantities (100 was the smallest order they would make and with all due respect to the v8sho community, i doubt that many will be interested to use even 80 of those 100) Any other questions feel free to post here or PM and I will do my absolute best to answer. I work with CPS, the company that does the porting for SHOBros.

 

[SHODWN]

I went and looked at the site offereing these, you do specify "tuning" is needed (thats good) but your saying that you need a 400.00 tuner to run them. Well thats cleared up..

One other thing I forgot to mention, if you open the ports on the LCM and you offer up opened gaskets (which you dont mention) you also have to open the upper manifold passageways to meet the newly opened gaskets and the matched LCM.

So Guys if they offer the Hogged out LCM, port matched gaskets (upper and lowers), and a hogged out upper manifolds to match everyting else and painted and shipped for 149.00 THATS A BARGAIN! Even better because this is being done on a Milling machine and not with a dremmel like the pics show.

Back when I did mine I spent well in excess of 1000.00 for all the work and data so I could see what would work and what did not work. Now Id like to see the same data from someone else.

And making the correct brass plates for the runners would be cheap if you had them done in a run, a CNC would punch out a 100 in a little over a hr. Its very simple when you have the correct measurement to cut the plates to. if all the holes are bored exactly the same then all of the plates would be the same.

 

[Dedragonknight]

With all due respect Kirk, I would rather keep these to PM's, since you are a "competitor" and this seems like a stab to sway people from purchasing these.
The knife edging is taking extra material off of it. From the factory, as you obviously know, it does come like that, however, we take it further and remove more material to allow it to transition better. We do about 1.5mm because that is all that we feel comfortable doing without a mill or cnc, and because we have no flowjet to make sure that we do not go to far to hurt flow. This is all done by hand. We use "stage" Simply because we needed some way to seperate one product from another.

You already answered the question about tuning, I will clarify. Basically in order to take full advantage of the "stage 2" you need to have your car tuned. Simple as that.

The actual port openings are the exact size of the gaskets, its just the additional matrerial in the LCM that is taken out that enlarges the ports, and that is not taken out of the sides of the ports to require larger gaskets.

We have not dyno tested this. We are using a method we started using on the Vulcan and as you can see from mine if your over at the tcca at all, it worked darn well. We, like I have stated all along, are offering to pay for a dyno run on someone who buys this to find out just how much gains are to be had. On the one car that had this, he did tell me he did in fact feel a gain, though a transmission issue and the other issue i listed earlier has stopped all form of feedback coming from that. We don't have this down to a science. In all honestly we may never. We are just trying, along with SHOBros, to finally offer more products to the V8 SHO, as well as all the other Taurus's out there.

As for the price 149 is the base cost of just the upper manifold, options are listed on the site. Doing a CNC run was never an option as for now everything is hand done. Unfortunatly we don't all have 1000 dollars to spend on this This just gives everyone a good option to use when they dont want to drop a grand.

 

[Wess]

With all due respect Kirk, I would rather keep these to PM's, since you are a "competitor" and this seems like a stab to sway people from purchasing these.

I disagree with you on that. I fully appreciate the fact that Kirk is asking the hard questions here. Furthermore, I appreciate you answering those questions. If you're going to use this forum to solicit buyers I would suggest you be fully prepared to be scrutinized by its members. The large majority of us here don’t know the intricate details of the V8, and therefore don’t always know which questions to ask. We rely on folks like Kirk and Eric to help us make informed decisions about these vehicles.

 

[SHODWN]

First and Foremost You are not my competitor. Im not "stabbing away" at all, if your going to offer anything at all these questions must be answered. I myself is the only person ever to do this and I did not use a dremel, I had mine milled to a certain tolerance after seeing what the flow bench said.

Anyway on to the topic:

So your hand doing these, I assume with a dremmel or Carbide bit. What are you doing to keep the round holes "round"? If your not using a machine they they will not be round and thats why you can not offer plates, because I know you know that you cant make several sized plates with different circumfrences its just impossible.

On to the knife edge. your improving this? Of course your taking more meat out of it-- your enlargeing the hole!!!!!!!! Tell me how your improving the flow chareristics of the LCM by doing this.. and tell me how you came to the conclusion that you have improved anything.

"The actual port openings are the exact size of the gaskets, its just the additional matrerial in the LCM that is taken out that enlarges the ports, and that is not taken out of the sides of the ports to require larger gaskets."

Whoa! Do you even have a LCM or runners to work with? The upper gaskets are smaller then the opeings on the secondary side, so you would have to doublly open the upper gaskets. Now on the lowers! the lowers are the same size as the openings Within .0035, so you would have to open up the gaskets. Before you try to tell me there not, Im lucky enough to have 1,2,50 LCM's, runners, and 1000's of gaskets to check your info against .

Ok so your offering a polish of just the upper runners for 149.00? if so I mis understood you and I appologize for that. explain just what peices you are cleaning up for 149.00. let me list the parts for you.

Intake Runners:
Two sets of fronts
Two sets of rears

Surge Tank:
Horns
Elbow :for the Throttle body to connect to

There is alot to this and just because you said someone "felt" a gain does not mean squat! To me or anyone! You need physcal proof of dyno runs on the sameday with only the parts you modfiy added (swapped) to show results of what you did.

What im doing here is asking you questions that you should know as a provider of parts! If you think im stepping on your toes your wrong. But I want proof of what you claim, What your doing is taking my ideas and proof and trying to cheapen out the process with no proof of what your doing. I dont care if you have 10$ or 10000$ to test this with. This is not a VULCAN we dont have the same restrictions in our intake that you do, Yes I seen what you did, remember I deleted your posts because you never made a donation to the TCCA at that time and you were advertising and getting a group buy without permission from the staff.

Now instead of posting of porting making people think that they are getting a professional "port and polish" job which done correctly with cost you MUCH MUCH more. state that your polishing the intakes, list what parts you are polishing for a certain price. then offer up a Hand port job, with doing the best job you can do with out the use of a machine to evenly cut the holes and tell us why its better with proof to back you up.

Say it like that and Ill even help you in trying to move the product, im always at the dyno! and Ill give you results to help you make your sale. If it helps.

I also hate to say that the same car losing the trans and blowing up on the Dyno sounds kind of fishy to me.

Sorry for any spelling issues, I dont have the time to check them all out....

With all due respect Kirk, I would rather keep these to PM's, since you are a "competitor" and this seems like a stab to sway people from purchasing these.

The knife edging is taking extra material off of it. From the factory, as you obviously know, it does come like that, however, we take it further and remove more material to allow it to transition better. We do about 1.5mm because that is all that we feel comfortable doing without a mill or cnc, and because we have no flowjet to make sure that we do not go to far to hurt flow. This is all done by hand. We use "stage" Simply because we needed some way to seperate one product from another.

You already answered the question about tuning, I will clarify. Basically in order to take full advantage of the "stage 2" you need to have your car tuned. Simple as that.

The actual port openings are the exact size of the gaskets, its just the additional matrerial in the LCM that is taken out that enlarges the ports, and that is not taken out of the sides of the ports to require larger gaskets.

We have not dyno tested this. We are using a method we started using on the Vulcan and as you can see from mine if your over at the tcca at all, it worked darn well. We, like I have stated all along, are offering to pay for a dyno run on someone who buys this to find out just how much gains are to be had. On the one car that had this, he did tell me he did in fact feel a gain, though a transmission issue and the other issue i listed earlier has stopped all form of feedback coming from that. We don't have this down to a science. In all honestly we may never. We are just trying, along with SHOBros, to finally offer more products to the V8 SHO, as well as all the other Taurus's out there.

As for the price 149 is the base cost of just the upper manifold, options are listed on the site. Doing a CNC run was never an option as for now everything is hand done. Unfortunatly we don't all have 1000 dollars to spend on this This just gives everyone a good option to use when they dont want to drop a grand.

 

[SHODWN]

One more thing: Before this gets into a ******* match between you and I, im just letting you know that if you start making false acusations and take this personally I will whack the entire thread.

What I want is proof, and Im Sure Brian and Matt want to be able to offer up good proof of what is being sold as a SB's part. Im sure they dont want to get into having a name like the sho shop did of selling stuff that did not work.

just keep this in mind when you post you response. all I want is good data to back up your claims.

 

[E1]

I'm still volunteering a guinnea pig stock V8 SHO here. Not gonna buy anything, and I probably wanna do the wrenching myself, but the offer is still on the table if it will help. I have spare intakes if you need something to grind on, too.

 

[Silvapain]

Just to clear one thing up:

Kirk, Eric: it was my car that was the prototype, and I can assure everyone that it most certainly did have a catastrophic engine failure; though it wasn't on a dyno. I was in the process of borrowing a spare intake from Paul and setting up dyno time before everything happened.

Eric, I might take you up on that offer and do the wrenching.

 

[SHODWN]

That makes a bit more sense! Meaing that it wasnt done on the dyno that is. That is how it sounded.

 

[Dedragonknight]

Sorry for the competitor remark, It just seemed strange to me how you came about stating your questions. No offense taken or meant.
These are being done with both an electric die grinder, and an air dremmel. I do not use carbide bits, as I feel they take off too much, too fast. Just personal preference. And yes, they are hand done, and I haven't claimed otherwise. They stay round because when doing them, gaskets are used to scribe the mating surface, and I use that as a template. I do not go out of the lines, and stay on them very well. The plates are non existant with the lower with what we do, we take them out.

The knife edge. THe whole is not being enlarged. at least at the lower portion where it meets the gasket. The upper part of it, the upside-down V, becomes a lot smaller. imagine shortening the big V into a little v. It smoothens the flow transition, as well as opens up the space in there, which, as you may know, enlarges the space in the intake which increases torque.


"The actual port openings are the exact size of the gaskets, its just the additional matrerial in the LCM that is taken out that enlarges the ports, and that is not taken out of the sides of the ports to require larger gaskets."

As stated above basically i open it to match the gaskets EXACTLY. Perhaps the gaskets were different, as I hope Daniel can remember, there was most definatly a difference in size of the gasket vs. the port, and the port was smaller. and yes, I did work with the actual intake. I do not have 50, and at the moment dont have any in stock to play with, so I will take your word for the clearances.

And yes, upper runners are 149. No offense taken.

Intake Runners:
Two sets of fronts:gasket matching, and using a 120 grit roll through the entire runners (i can reach 99% of them for the primaries) to smoothen them down (yes they are already fairly smooth, there are a some bumps and ridges in them from casting)
Same goes for the rears.

Surge Tank: The openings to the runners are opened up a TINY bit (enough to match the gasket, cause If you check hopefully you will see that there is a bit of a difference. Also polished mildly.

The horns arent touched.
Elbow :for the Throttle body to connect to: that is hit with the 120 grit for the bumps and ridges and polished as well. There wasnt really any matching to do on this so it was left alone.

"There is alot to this and just because you said someone "felt" a gain does not mean squat! To me or anyone! You need physcal proof of dyno runs on the sameday with only the parts you modfiy added (swapped) to show results of what you did."

To a point that is true. However, if the person really did feel a gain, then it did so SOMETHING positive. I may not (yet) be able to provide EXACT hp and tq numbers.... tho I never will obviously because each car is different. It is hard offering a new product like this, and i know you understand that. I do not have the money to purchase an SHO, tho I did give away an intake so someone could test it, however bad luck hit and as Daniel said, things were planned to be tested for real number based results.

I realize you are asking the questions because some people cannot/do not know the correct ones to ask, and I do thank you for that because people like you have helped me in the past.

As for the professional porting and polishing job remark... I do resent that. This is a professionally done HAND porting and polishing job, and it is advertised as such. They are paying for a job done by hand as well, and I make no other false promises about it.

"Say it like that and Ill even help you in trying to move the product, im always at the dyno! and Ill give you results to help you make your sale. If it helps."

If and when we find out the fate of daniels car, perhaps we could work something out to find out the real gains, I would be more than interested.

Thanks for keeping it civil and hopefully this is all benificial for the clubs! Ditto about the spelling.

 

[Dedragonknight]

I will whack the entire thread.
\QUOTE]



LOL sorry thats funny as **** because you used the word whack.

As for the offer to be a test mule, Once we find out what happened to Daniels car for sure, I will be more than open to offers for this

 

[SHOspazz92]

Sorry for the competitor remark, It just seemed strange to me how you came about stating your questions. No offense taken or meant.
These are being done with both an electric die grinder, and an air dremmel. I do not use carbide bits, as I feel they take off too much, too fast. Just personal preference. And yes, they are hand done, and I haven't claimed otherwise. They stay round because when doing them, gaskets are used to scribe the mating surface, and I use that as a template. I do not go out of the lines, and stay on them very well. The plates are non existant with the lower with what we do, we take them out.

The knife edge. THe whole is not being enlarged. at least at the lower portion where it meets the gasket. The upper part of it, the upside-down V, becomes a lot smaller. imagine shortening the big V into a little v. It smoothens the flow transition, as well as opens up the space in there, which, as you may know, enlarges the space in the intake which increases torque.


"The actual port openings are the exact size of the gaskets, its just the additional matrerial in the LCM that is taken out that enlarges the ports, and that is not taken out of the sides of the ports to require larger gaskets."

As stated above basically i open it to match the gaskets EXACTLY. Perhaps the gaskets were different, as I hope Daniel can remember, there was most definatly a difference in size of the gasket vs. the port, and the port was smaller. and yes, I did work with the actual intake. I do not have 50, and at the moment dont have any in stock to play with, so I will take your word for the clearances.

And yes, upper runners are 149. No offense taken.

Intake Runners:
Two sets of fronts:gasket matching, and using a 120 grit roll through the entire runners (i can reach 99% of them for the primaries) to smoothen them down (yes they are already fairly smooth, there are a some bumps and ridges in them from casting)
Same goes for the rears.

Surge Tank: The openings to the runners are opened up a TINY bit (enough to match the gasket, cause If you check hopefully you will see that there is a bit of a difference. Also polished mildly.

The horns arent touched.
Elbow :for the Throttle body to connect to: that is hit with the 120 grit for the bumps and ridges and polished as well. There wasnt really any matching to do on this so it was left alone.

"There is alot to this and just because you said someone "felt" a gain does not mean squat! To me or anyone! You need physcal proof of dyno runs on the sameday with only the parts you modfiy added (swapped) to show results of what you did."

To a point that is true. However, if the person really did feel a gain, then it did so SOMETHING positive. I may not (yet) be able to provide EXACT hp and tq numbers.... tho I never will obviously because each car is different. It is hard offering a new product like this, and i know you understand that. I do not have the money to purchase an SHO, tho I did give away an intake so someone could test it, however bad luck hit and as Daniel said, things were planned to be tested for real number based results.

I realize you are asking the questions because some people cannot/do not know the correct ones to ask, and I do thank you for that because people like you have helped me in the past.

As for the professional porting and polishing job remark... I do resent that. This is a professionally done HAND porting and polishing job, and it is advertised as such. They are paying for a job done by hand as well, and I make no other false promises about it.

"Say it like that and Ill even help you in trying to move the product, im always at the dyno! and Ill give you results to help you make your sale. If it helps."

If and when we find out the fate of daniels car, perhaps we could work something out to find out the real gains, I would be more than interested.

Thanks for keeping it civil and hopefully this is all benificial for the clubs! Ditto about the spelling.

-Sam

 

[Dedragonknight]

haha thanks for the thumbs up... i think

 

[Dedragonknight]

by the way everyone, daniels car is blown up pretty good. PM me if your intrested in testing, and I will get you the details!