sway bars

[brandon_oma#692]

with the 24/23 i lose tractin on the inside front wheel. I am thinking about a 28 rear but am unsure if it is worth it to do the swap. It is also kinda fun with the saggy rear springs and soft bar i cannot make the rear come around in the snow. how can i find out what springs i have? The struts are blue tockikos. I will probably replace rear springs and bar in the spring. Moog rear springs and a 28mm bar. Anybody running without a front bar with a smaller rear?

 

[Shoaz]

That fat front bar is contributing to your loss of traction on the inside front wheel. If it were me the priority would be getting that thing out and replaced with something softer. You may not need to change anything else.

If your springs are stock they'll have "tags" on them with three letter codes that will tell the original spring rate. Since you have Tokicos there's a good chance you have aftermarket springs. If they're black they may be Eibachs, if they're purple they're Intrax.

 

[38SHO]

word I wouldn't try to run an even bigger rear to compensate for the 24 front.........

switch out the front to a 20.5 and try that with the 23 rear...... if that plows too much try a 26 rear

 

[yamahaSHO]

That fat front bar is contributing to your loss of traction on the inside front wheel. If it were me the priority would be getting that thing out and replaced with something softer. You may not need to change anything else.

If your springs are stock they'll have "tags" on them with three letter codes that will tell the original spring rate. Since you have Tokicos there's a good chance you have aftermarket springs. If they're black they may be Eibachs, if they're purple they're Intrax.

Such a wannabe...

 

[Shoaz]

switch out the front to a 20.5 and try that with the 23 rear...... if that plows too much try a 26 rear

That'd be a good plan, IMHO.

Such a wannabe...

You know it!

 

[1993MTXSHO]

word I wouldn't try to run an even bigger rear to compensate for the 24 front.........

switch out the front to a 20.5 and try that with the 23 rear...... if that plows too much try a 26 rear

What about if there is a quaife involved, if you have a quaife, it should plant the power and help the car have less roll with a 24/28 right?

 

[38SHO]

dunno never driven a quaife car...

 

[gmorrell]

What about if there is a quaife involved, if you have a quaife, it should plant the power and help the car have less roll with a 24/28 right?

The Quaife is a case where you want less front roll stiffness from an anitroll bar. Excess roll stiffness from a bar causes wheels to lift away from the pavement, and the Quaife functions rather poorly (it becomes an open diff) if one wheel lifts.

Antiroll bars are crutches to make street cars handle acceptably without resorting to excessive spring rates. Most race cars use very high spring rates to achieve high roll stiffness without using antiroll bars. With high spring rates (high wheel rates), and no antiroll bars, it's much easier to keep tires on the pavement, where they can do some good. If street cars were sprung like road race cars, most of you wouldn't want to ride in them.

 

[zak]

i have a 95mtx so i have the worst setup of all stock....i am going to do subframe connectors and swap out a gen 1 sway bar set up....thoughts?

I bought a 95 MTX brand new and over the years have experimented with about half the suspension bits available outside of coilovers (finally taking the plunge on some Eibachs this winter - have tried every stock offered sway bar combo).

Anyhow, one budget upgrade is to get a set of 200 lbs/inch front springs and 130 lb/inch rear springs off of a southern 92 or 93 MTX SHO. They changed the spring metallurgy for 1992 and particularly the rears are more sag resistant. The fronts sometimes rust and snap (into the tire) on northern cars It is important to get a set from someone that has run good OEM SHO, Tokico or Koni struts so that they are not fatigued (particularly the rears).

I would skip a 23 mm rear bar and instead get a 25 mm bar off of an 92-93 Taurus police car and leave the front one alone (it is 20.6 on 94/95 MTX's). A 26 mm rear bar (89-91 SHO) can make things a bit tailhappy in the rain or snow if you're not ready for it. If you are going to autocross get the 26 mm rear bar.

For my Quaife equipped occasional autox car, currently on the GSR code 200/130 springs and 26 mm rear bar, I have found that 20.6 mm front helps corner exit somewhat, but does not provide enough roll resistance when 245 series tires are taken up to their limit (suspension bottoms) so I use a 22 mm front bar - I might try a thinner front bar once I swap in Eibachs to compliment my Gen III front subframe swap.

Hope this helps - zak.

 

[Toolman]

24/29 with 700f/600r springs in a 2600lb SHO. I wonder how that would handle.

 

[expy916]

What would 20.6/26 with Eibachs, ALSFB's, and SFC's handle like?

 

[38SHO]

tim if I was running that hard of springs I might not even run swaybars with it......

some race cars ditch em all together when going with nice stiff springs......

I'd defintely run 20.5 with those type of springs.... I really think the 24's plow too much and give up traction

 

[93silverbulletSH0]

Can the Gen III 22mm front sway bar (with the collars) be installed on a gen I/II?

 

[JEM]

22mm/26mm is the best all-around combo, throttle-steerable with a Quaife and at least safely balanced without one.

24mm/26mm is a 'safe understeer' combo with a Quaife; without the Quaife you get a fair bit of understeer and piles of one-wheel peel.

20.6/26mm is a good autocross combo, too tail-happy for track use.

With an open diff you get best grip (if not best ride) by decoupling the front wheels as much as possible, minimal or no anti-roll bar and lots of spring rate. This is typical of FWD racers where the rules don't permit a limited-slip. With a Quaife you've got a lot more flexibility, a little sway-bar-induced lateral weight transfer actually promotes throttle-steerability.

I think the Gen 3 bar would work on the earlier cars but you need the canted end-links because the outer ends of the bar are turned inward.

 

[yamahaSHO]

I have a Gen III 22mm bar up front on my car and I don't remember needing special end-links to install it. I did already have the Windstar end-links installed which are able to make the adjustment.

 

[92inPA]

I run 19.6 / 26 bars with 500 front & 430 rear coil overs. Have done several hundred miles on the track with that combination. I don't think its too "tail happy" at all..... Actually it is rather tail happy, but that helps the car more than hurts, IMO.

But then again, I sold the car last month. So the new owner will need to decide if it's too loose.

 

[JEM]

I run 19.6 / 26 bars with 500 front & 430 rear coil overs. Have done several hundred miles on the track with that combination. I don't think its too "tail happy" at all..... Actually it is rather tail happy, but that helps the car more than hurts, IMO.

My comments were based on stock/Eibach-ish spring rates, not coilovers.

It's very common to set up FWD track cars, particularly those without limited-slips, with lots of rear roll stiffness. This, combined with decoupling the front wheels (small or no front sway bar) helps keep the inside front wheel on the ground through corners, where a stock SHO likes to make lots of white smoke while trying to accelerate.

The downside of this is that getting through corners fast demands an absolute commitment to a line, lots of hard throttle application; the slightest lift will loop you. It's difficult to drive a car set up that way in traffic, and someone used to RWD and throttle-steerability will find it spooky.

 

[38SHO]

The downside of this is that getting through corners fast demands an absolute commitment to a line, lots of hard throttle application; the slightest lift will loop you. It's difficult to drive a car set up that way in traffic, and someone used to RWD and throttle-steerability will find it spooky.

shit maybe thats what some people like haha... I dunno I find it more amusing when the car is more on edge and harder to drive... as long as it stills goes through a corner fast, it gives you more of an adrenaline rush... to me its just not fun when you plow through a corner slow as ****, but safe..... my 24/23 combo absolutely sucked hard... big wheel spin with the 3.2 and plowed like a farmer's tool

see I don't competitively race... so I'm not out to tune my suspension to see which one knocks off time on the autcross run or on laptimes... I just do it to make the car more fun to drive to me.... my ideas on suspension setups might not be the fastest, but its fun to drive

 

[92inPA]

.... getting through corners fast demands an absolute commitment to a line, lots of hard throttle application; the slightest lift will loop you. ....

Yes! :woo-hoo: That's exactly like my car reacts, and it is fun as can be. You're right, you need to get the line exactly correct or else you're in trouble. But as long as you stay on line, and keep your foot in it, you'll be just fine. The old saying that "loose is fast" is absolutely correct for these cars.

And that 'slight lift of the throttle' is sometimes loads of fun. Getting the car to do that final bit of rotation on corner exit can set you up for a long run to the next corner. The inner section of the north course of Pocono demands lots of trailing throttle steering.

Note that this is only for track purposes. I'm sure it wouldn't be much fun on a street setup.




Oh yea, it used to be that much fun. Now Sam gets to have the fun. Now I'm getting depressed. I miss my SHO.

 

[jthod]

I have a Gen III 22mm bar up front on my car and I don't remember needing special end-links to install it. I did already have the Windstar end-links installed which are able to make the adjustment.

you have mini van parts on your car :laugh_ti: